Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by Doughnut, Apr 25, 2005.

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  1. Can anyone out there shed more light on the validity of the Compulsory Drugs Testing Program. I am particularly annoyed by its existance. Not that I use illegal substances, its just that one can fail a BFT (I am old school) and get in more trouble (Remedial PT, interview without coffee etc), than if you were to fail a CDT test.

    I have personal experience of a unit that back in 19** had several failures on a random CDT. Two individuals in particular, failed the test. One was below the "cut - off" level for the permitted amount of "dope" in his urine. The other was way above, having smoked the night before. A "cut-off" level similiar to the alcohol drink-drive level principle. Why are we not told about this "cut-off" level in drugs presentations?

    The individual (Soldier A) who was below the cut-off level recieved a slap to the wrist. The individual (Soldier B) who was above ......a mere three month warning order. I feel this is contray to CDT information that says that if we are caught we will be discharged.

    Some three weeks later both Soldier A and B were late for PT. Soldier A was jailed. Soldier B was let off, I enquired as to why and was given the reply that if he was jailed he would be discharged because he was on a three month bender.

    I thought that was the whole point of three month benders, to remove people with discipline problems? We were briefed not to make comment about Soldier A or B due to potential repercussions. A few days after the CDT another Soldier in the section failed a BFT and ended up on remedial PT for nearly six months, having been publicly disgraced and ridiculed in front of the regiment by the CSM and his own section OC.

    In comparison, why dont we then have remedial drugs training? What are your thoughts on the whole subject?
  2. Sorry mate but you reek of journo. Just because you've made a few non commital posts doesn't mean all and sundry should believe you to be who you profess. If your genuine then I wouldn't say this was a good idea as it's in the public domain.
  3. Wooffy,

    Reek of journo? Just what do you mean by that? I am not offended, I genuinely dont know.

    I can understand the public domain / security issue, but its nothing the public dont already know about.

    Maybe you think it should be moved to a different forum?
  4. Doughnut I'm saying you ask questions only a Journalist would ask on a muck raking exercise If not then this thread would end up on a tabloid column anyway.
  5. Wooffy,

    Thanks for the reasoned opinion. Its just that I have a chip on my shoulder after having seen so much injustice in the Forces. Good Soldiers trying to do their duty who get crucified for making a minor mistake, compared to total idiots who get let off after committing serious offences.

    I guess a lot of subjects debated on ARRSE would make tabloid fodder.
  6. There will always be injustice in the forces or for that matter anywhere else as you are being judged by humans who are not always right and can be swayed by personal opinion. The military has started to evolve into a large business/corporation in a desperate attempt to survive in the society we now exist in. Disipline and retention have had to be radically altered to meet these needs.
  7. Wooffy,

    I like that.

    I have just recalled that we do have something called Remedial Drug Training......pull up another log...

    I cannot mention any names, however I am sure some of you out there will be familiar with this one....

    I believe we have a drugs awareness ITD. Something else as well...

    There is a guy who goes around and is paid to do so by the MOD to give drugs lectures. He starts off by saying that he was one of the first to be caught out by CDT, way back at the time of Gulf War One.

    He was discharged and got into dealing in Civvy street, made a lot of money and boasted to us about it. Got nicked by the civvy Police and did a few years in a Civilian nick.

    He is employed by the MOD to go around giving drugs lectures, because as he boasted he has "insider knowledge and knows the score"

    A nice two hour lecture. Being the conscientious Soldier that I am, when notice of the lecture was posted on Orders, I attended as it was classed as a Scale A Parade. I was in the middle of production, but downed tools and got there the timely 5 minutes before. 2 hours production lost. I had to make the time up by working on a Sunday afternoon when I should have been with my dearly beloved.

    Who the hell does this guy think he is ? He boasts of having made a lot of money through dealing and acts as though he is something important. I just wish I was allowed to mention his name.

    I had to suffer the indignity of listening to his drivel and then work overtime to sort my production out.

    Where is the justice in that?
  8. Another bit,

    Does anyone out there know about Pro-hormones, a type of "sports - supplement". Pro-hormone is a general descripion. They have more specific names like 19 Nor and Keto Diosgenin........

    These supplements can be bought quite legally on the internet and in shops all over the UK. They are not illegal to take or to posess. But, when you ingest them, they will in conjunction with your bodies natural processes "convert into other substances".

    One of these other substances that you will eventually pee out is a metabolite of "the steroid Nandrolone". Nandrolone is a Class 3 drug, ie Nandrolone is illegal.

    You have not actually taken Nandrolone but because of the way your body utilises the prohormones that you have taken you pee out a metabolite of Nandrolone. You will produce what is called a "false positive" test for Nandrolone. In other words ...if you are caught you are in big trouble.....in the Forces anyway.... This is because you will have no way of proving that you did not take pure Nandrolone in the first place.......

    So why is it then at the beginning of every CDT test they say "We do not want to know about bodybuilding potions and lotions". What the hell do you do if you have used pro-hormones, which are not illegal.

    If you tell them you have used prohormones...which would be a bit of a nerve wracking thing to do....because I am sure the CDT teans know all about pro-hormones.....they will more than likely mark your test for sampling. You will then get caught out for apparently taking Nandrolone...and wont be able to prove otherwise.... What should a pro-hormone user do....? How does one get round that problem. Dont say stop taking them, because they are not ilegal and will remain in your system for a long time after !

    Did I mention "the marking" of apparently anonymous samples for testing ? Whoops. believe me I have seen it done !

    Before I go off to the flicks.....what about creatine? I know a lot of you out there have heard ...and indeed use this nutrirional sports supplement.

    It is perfectly legal in all aspects. Even Tesco's sell it. I have knowledge of a particular unit / individual that in 98 produced a positive test...for creatine....! Despite the fact that on the CDT brief in question they said
    they did not want to know about Bodybuilding potions and lotions....

    This individual was accused of using Creatine as a masking agent for other drugs. He showed me the papers he was issued with. It was there in black and white.

    Creatine cannot be used as a masking agent. It is found quite naturally in red meat. It is strange that about three weeks later another result came back from the original test group...another individual tested positive for creatine...., But this individual lived in the same room as the first one...! Marked sample or what.

    Can we have some reasoned comment on this please ?
  9. Whats the matter? Have I hit the nail on the head with this one? Does it expose a home truth about the MOD CDT Policy in that it is in need of a major review?

    Or are you lot just to scared to talk about it?
  10. Flyingrockdj

    Flyingrockdj War Hero Moderator

    I was just finishing my shmoke and pancake.

    CDT? is that compulsory drug taking?

    Cos some units think it is!

    Quandry is that people are using it as a ticket working tool.

    I have seen it
  11. I reckon thats a ggod description ...Compulsory Drug Taking....!

    I know of one Unit in the UK where some of the PTI's are so overworked they have admitted to me they cannot get their job done without using banned steroids or......Ephedrine...!

    Incidentally, ephedrine is not illegal to posess under UK law, but in the forces it has the potential to be classed as a non-prescribed stimulant. (NPS). Under military law it is illegal to be in posession of a NPS.

    Ephedrine increases mental alertness, mobilises brown fat for energy and opens up the alveoli in the lungs to take more oxygen in. Hey presto....supercharged rocket fuel...!

    But it can cause severe damage to your kidneys and brain....it mega de-hydrates you. Combine it with a bit of caffeine for further mobilistaion of fat for energy and some aspirin for thinned blood and you are unstoppable.

    Ok,......so some of us out there know that drug taking goes on....should we report it? Do we have a duty of care to do so? Maybe we do ...but I guess that due to my percieved injustices in the CDT program and its inability to be used as an effective management tool....why should we?

    The top brass know it goes on but do not use their authority to manage it effectively......oh and I have just remembered another incident from way back in BFG in '93.....but I will save that fro next time.....

  12. Why should we report it????

    Ofcourse it should be reported. Do you genuinely want some fcukwit, with half a bag of coke up his snout the night before working alongside you on a range or live firing ex?

    Give me a break, if some junky slacker wants to get his mental kicks out of drugs then get the little fcukwit out of my unit and do it in the comfort of his own cell.

    Fcukin' junkies should all be lined up and shot just for looking so deathly thin, *******.

    Maybe the CDT does'nt work but I bet my lunch money it would work if it was a direct result of someone being reported.
  13. Devilish,

    Refer to my first post. Soldier B.

    Guess what...only a few days after he had been put on a three month bender I had very strong proof that he had been smoking weed in town. I reported this to my immediate superior ...only to be told
    "We cant do anyything because he is on a three monthe bender and might get chucked out"

    When the management fails you what is the point?
  14. What constitutes a drug in the Forces...

    Pro hormones?
    Creatine?......or Alcohol?