Driving Hours. EU Directives.

#1
Musician Blanknumber works for the Royal Snail and drives a truck over 3.5 tonnes. His employer as just informed him that he cannot take "Paid Work" during his 45 hrs rest period.

Bye Bye Pte Blanknumber :thumbdown:

Sadly, this is just about to happen to one of my blokee's. As much as I am law abiding I find this very frustrating. :pissedoff: he's a Bandsman FFS, not two a penny and difficult to come by trained and ready to blow.

His there a way out for Musician Blanknumber?????
 

jmj

Old-Salt
#3
YANTOFULPELT said:
Musician Blanknumber works for the Royal Snail and drives a truck over 3.5 tonnes. His employer as just informed him that he cannot take "Paid Work" during his 45 hrs rest period.
Weekly Rest

The EU drivers' hours rules require 45 consecutive hours weekly rest, but this can be reduced down to 36 or 24 hours (depending upon where it is taken) provided that any reduction is compensated for within three weeks. Rest requirements, are additional to any paid annual leave entitlement that drivers are entitled to under other working time legislation.
I would presume that those 45 hour rest periods are paid by the employer, therefore the employer would be within their rights to insist that it is taken as rest and not devoted to a second job, no matter how restful? I may be barking up the wrong tree with this, but it's the best answer I could come up with after 5 minutes on google.

As for a solution, if those 45 hours correspond to the only times he can practice / perform / whatever, then I would imagine he's stuffed.

J
 
#4
You are NOT allowed to undertake any paid work while on rest periods. However Reserve forces , retained firemen etc have an exemption. This is my companys view of things anyway. The Royal Mail should bloody well know that. But knowing that organisation its probally some lefty with issues sh1t stirring. Working on your rest period for mobile workers may also fall foul of the EEC working time directive (48hr wk) . However Reseve forces etc have an exemption for that aswell.

LT.
 
#5
JSP341 also refers to this and is the authority for use of TA soldiers emplyed as LGV drivers in their civilian employment. I can't remember the exact rules but, essentially, if they've used up their drivers hours in civi time then they must fill in the form (an appendix to an annex to Chap X) stating the hours they have completed and they cannot drive for the TA beyond those hours.

Any time spent driving in TA training time, however, does not count against their drivers hours for civi employment the following day.

Get your MT wallah to pull JSP341 and pick the relevant bit. I've looked on Armynet and it ain't there.
 
#8
This is an age old discussion. BS is quite right, MoD have dispensation wrt Drivers Hours Regulations. Whilst TA soldiers are employed by the TA in driving duties this time does not count towards their civvy employment. However more disturbing is that nobody has mentioned whether he is safe to drive whilst employed within the TA and that he is within his driving hours when he reports for duty, after alll he may have driven 10 hrs that day and the TA expect him to drive another 4 hrs up and down motorways in a fatigued state.

I know that the TA self certify when they report for driving duties to say that they are fit and healthy and see no reason why they cannot drive but is this enough or should we be employing other methods.
 
#9
Quite right, since when has the Army/ TA been bothered about the number of hours spent behind a wheel.
I remember some blurke visiting us on an exercise waffling on about improving "health and safety" in the field. Don't know what other depts told him but all the WOs to a man based on their experience had witnessed more accidents due to exhausted drivers.
Ask, put a man behind a wheel when he has had no sleep for 24 hrs and expect him to drive non stop in a 20 tonne vehicle for 8 hrs plus. thsi is a recipe for disaster.
:spiderman:
theonethatknows said:
This is an age old discussion. BS is quite right, MoD have dispensation wrt Drivers Hours Regulations. Whilst TA soldiers are employed by the TA in driving duties this time does not count towards their civvy employment. However more disturbing is that nobody has mentioned whether he is safe to drive whilst employed within the TA and that he is within his driving hours when he reports for duty, after alll he may have driven 10 hrs that day and the TA expect him to drive another 4 hrs up and down motorways in a fatigued state.

I know that the TA self certify when they report for driving duties to say that they are fit and healthy and see no reason why they cannot drive but is this enough or should we be employing other methods.
 
#10
Yes, MoD has exemption from drivers' hours regs but the Royal Mail are talking about EU directive for which the govt has not sought an exemption (according to piece in today's Sunday Telegraph).
Having not sought an exemption, govt now faces having to negotiate a change to EU directives, which ain't easy.
If Sun Tel is right, this will have a major effect on TA units, esp RLC tpt regts.
What fun!
 
#13
I have it on very good authority that we have now applied for this exemption and that it should be passed through goverment before the new ruling is introduced.

Glad somebody out there picked up on this!!
 
#14
yantofulpelt, i drive for a living and am a TA loggie, in a mag (truck or truck and driver) someone had written in to their legal page with the same dilemma as your bandsman.
all they could do was quote from the VOSA website on drivers hours.
when i checked VOSA's website and it said no exemptions, i printed it off and gave it to my MT staffie who flagged it up to the master driver, he went further with it and about 2 weeks later we got a memo saying to ignore it as there is or will be an exemption for MOD.
 
#15
indiadeltaonezerotango said:
yantofulpelt, i drive for a living and am a TA loggie, in a mag (truck or truck and driver) someone had written in to their legal page with the same dilemma as your bandsman.
all they could do was quote from the VOSA website on drivers hours.
when i checked VOSA's website and it said no exemptions, i printed it off and gave it to my MT staffie who flagged it up to the master driver, he went further with it and about 2 weeks later we got a memo saying to ignore it as there is or will be an exemption for MOD.
There appears to be a bit of cinfusion here which is very understandable.

OldSnowy has made this point on another thread about this subject but I will reiterate it here.

The MOD already has an exemption from the Working time directive and operates its own drivers hours system which has various levels and safegaurds built in.

The problem here does not lie directly with Private Blanknumber at the weekend when he is doing TA work. It rears it's ugly head on Monday morning when Mr Blanknumber reports to his civilian employer. Up until now he did not have to declare the fact that he had worked over his rest period from his civilian job, as the legislation currently stands he will now have to declare his military activity to his civilian employer who will have no choice but to include the time worked in the calculation of Mr BlankNumber's working hours for the week.

There is no current exemption for civilian employers to ignore military time, it only applies the other way in that the military is exempt from the rules therefore does not have to include the previous 5 days working for your civilian employer when you report to teh TAC on a Fri night.

clear as mud eh???
 
#16
Humphrey_De_Tiluel said:
indiadeltaonezerotango said:
yantofulpelt, i drive for a living and am a TA loggie, in a mag (truck or truck and driver) someone had written in to their legal page with the same dilemma as your bandsman.
all they could do was quote from the VOSA website on drivers hours.
when i checked VOSA's website and it said no exemptions, i printed it off and gave it to my MT staffie who flagged it up to the master driver, he went further with it and about 2 weeks later we got a memo saying to ignore it as there is or will be an exemption for MOD.
There appears to be a bit of cinfusion here which is very understandable.

OldSnowy has made this point on another thread about this subject but I will reiterate it here.

The MOD already has an exemption from the Working time directive and operates its own drivers hours system which has various levels and safegaurds built in.

The problem here does not lie directly with Private Blanknumber at the weekend when he is doing TA work. It rears it's ugly head on Monday morning when Mr Blanknumber reports to his civilian employer. Up until now he did not have to declare the fact that he had worked over his rest period from his civilian job, as the legislation currently stands he will now have to declare his military activity to his civilian employer who will have no choice but to include the time worked in the calculation of Mr BlankNumber's working hours for the week.

There is no current exemption for civilian employers to ignore military time, it only applies the other way in that the military is exempt from the rules therefore does not have to include the previous 5 days working for your civilian employer when you report to teh TAC on a Fri night.

clear as mud eh???
So in summary: if you are a professional driver, please hand your kit in the next time you come to the TAC?

msr
 
#17
I agree, and does this not now make a nonsense of all RLC transport regt recruiting

to paraphrase "join us and get a Cat C+E, PSV and Cat A licence, and get paid!"

this now needs to go on to read "... and once youve done all that hand your kit as soon as you use those lovely licences to get a decent paid civvy job..."

Good job there isn't a recruiting challenge at the minute....

("Problem" is a word I'm not allowed to use and "crisis" would surely just be scaremongering wouldn't it?)
 
#19
Dear Irlsgt,

Whilst I agree you have identified a possible get out, it won't work. The CoC cannot knowingly allow a soldier to break the law, much less encourage him/her to do so.

It is (I believe) not so much the fact that the soldier is driving as that he/she is not resting and can be proved not to be doing so by being in paid employment during the statutory rest periods.

Perhaps it is an imperfect analogy, but if a serving person of any rank is banned from driving, a responsible CoC will have "serious words" if the soldier is suspected of driving in for a drill night, with a gypsy's warning as well. It might really be the only way for the soldier to be able to come in but the soldier is believed to possibly be breaking the law and opening him/herself up to more serious repercussions if caught by CivPol. It isn't a case of being a pain, simply acting responsibly and showing the proper concern and guidance for and to the soldier.

Where the EEC Directive is "worse" is that the paid employment is formally known of by the CoC (by dint of attendance registers etc), and therefore the CoC could be held to be culpable in allowing a soldier to break the law, or of being unable to pursue their normal gainful employment. Direction will be required.

This isn't just HGV drivers. This will spread to train drivers and numerous other forms of employment where there are statutory rest periods/max hours that can be worked. Society is getting ever more litigious due to a few "stupid" laws passed over the last few years. How long will it be before a smartass lawyer (to be fair, only doing his/her job properly for the benefit of the client), uses the driving issue to then cast doubt on the fitness of a surgeon to perform an operation when the surgeon had been on exercise the weekend before the unfortunate incident in the operating theatre? "So you weren't resting and in fact were exhausted from the military rigours of your extra-curricular employment" etc? Please note I am NOT a lawyer, painfully obvious as it would be to most people.

Obviously Britain should adopt the "continental" approach of just ignoring anything from the EEC that isn't agreed with however that is not the way we do things, sadly. My sub-unit has recruited by identifying synergies between employers and training we can offer, material for CV's and benefits for the individual in terms of future employability. If correct, this Directive appears to preclude another portion of the historical recruiting base from joining the TA.

It may be that we will only be able to recruit people that are unemployable, though we''ll need to ensure their benefits aren't stopped. Burberry berets for chavs? "Yau do as I says 'cos I's more bling than yau". My sincere apologies for being unable to "do" chav speak.

Yours in disbelief,

GH
 

the_boy_syrup

LE
Book Reviewer
#20
gung_hobo said:
Dear Irlsgt,



It is (I believe) not so much the fact that the soldier is driving as that he/she is not resting and can be proved not to be doing so by being in paid employment during the statutory rest periods.

Irlsgt is correct

This affects all proffesional drivers who are serving in all regiments of the TA not just RLC
If you are doing any paid work even stagging on can be counted against your hours for your civvie job

It's duty time that counts not driving if you pitch up a TAC on Friday and stay till Sunday you are on duty regardless what you do

It's a bit more in depth here
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=1092106.html#1092106

I work in transport and we had to check this out as we had drivers working doors on pubs etc

It all counts as work you don't have to be driving to create a rest infringement
If you work weekends you must declare it
If it affects your rest you may be parked up unpaid until you can show you have completed adequate rest
You now have to carry your last 15 days tachographs (I know forces are exempt) and by rights you should manually fill in 'other work' on tacho's so you can produce it
You may face a heavy fine and Vosa and the police can hold you in a service area if you have not provided proof of adequate rest

No employer is going to allow a tired driver out on to the road with the threat of jail or a massive fine hanging over them
We have been told unofficially that it is only a matter of time before some one is hammered by VOSA and the police to set an example
Ironically alot of drivers out there have gained their HGV qualifications by serving in the TA
 
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