Double VC for Afghan Heroes?

Nosher361

War Hero
PP - Why would P de la B's endorsement be dubious?, (genuine question). It was quite some time ago now, I can't remember the context, and don't know if he had a book out at the time, but he strikes me as a fairly 'straight-up' gent, and a soldier of great experience. I can't think of any advantage he could have gained from such an endorsement. And I can't think why he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

I saw the Clarkson programme aswell, and he did make the case that over time it has become more difficult to win, and even more difficult to win it and live to collect it. But I can't recall him saying that this was because extreme bravery is becoming 'commonplace'. More because the rules governing it's award have gradually become more precise, and are rigorously applied. Extreme bravery is not commonplace, hence the rarity of the VC.
 
Considering 626 were awarded in WWI and only 181 in WWII i'd say it is getting harder to be awarded the Victoria Cross. The first two ever awarded was to two officers who did a runner with the colours from Isandhlwana. Assistant Commissary Dalton who was the real hero of Roarke's Drift didn't even get one until 13 years after the battle as he was from a common family. Lieutenant Chard and Lieutenant Bromhead came from well to do families so Queen Victoria bestowed the award on them instead. By all accounts these two were useless knobbers and that's from many of the troops who fought there including VC winners.
 

balldrick

War Hero
Fallschirmjager said:
Considering 626 were awarded in WWI and only 181 in WWII i'd say it is getting harder to be awarded the Victoria Cross. The first two ever awarded was to two officers who did a runner with the colours from Isandhlwana. Assistant Commissary Dalton who was the real hero of Roarke's Drift didn't even get one until 13 years after the battle as he was from a common family. Lieutenant Chard and Lieutenant Bromhead came from well to do families so Queen Victoria bestowed the award on them instead. By all accounts these two were useless knobbers and that's from many of the troops who fought there including VC winners.

my bold they were not the first two ever awarded the first one's awarded were in the Crimea 1854-56 to Charles Lucas RN Isandhlwana was in January 1879
and Dalton was awarded his cross on the 16th of January 1880 almost One year after the battle not 13 years although his cross was gazzetted after the rest
 
minister_doh_nut said:
Brave fella putting down two VC winners.....

Almost like taking a dump on a church altar

I wonder how it would compare with knocking one out over Princess Di's grave?
 
balldrick said:
Fallschirmjager said:
Considering 626 were awarded in WWI and only 181 in WWII i'd say it is getting harder to be awarded the Victoria Cross. The first two ever awarded was to two officers who did a runner with the colours from Isandhlwana. Assistant Commissary Dalton who was the real hero of Roarke's Drift didn't even get one until 13 years after the battle as he was from a common family. Lieutenant Chard and Lieutenant Bromhead came from well to do families so Queen Victoria bestowed the award on them instead. By all accounts these two were useless knobbers and that's from many of the troops who fought there including VC winners.

my bold they were not the first two ever awarded the first one's awarded were in the Crimea 1854-56 to Charles Lucas RN Isandhlwana was in January 1879
and Dalton was awarded his cross on the 16th of January 1880 almost One year after the battle not 13 years although his cross was gazzetted after the rest


Can anyone explain why Lucas' VC (& some other reciprients too) had a blue ribbon?
 
Lofty19 said:
How can anyone "win" a VC? I always thought they were "earned".

In much the same that one "wins" a race. Nobody is implying that they come free with special packs of cornflakes...
 

topcat68

Old-Salt
fingers_1661 said:
balldrick said:
Fallschirmjager said:
Considering 626 were awarded in WWI and only 181 in WWII i'd say it is getting harder to be awarded the Victoria Cross. The first two ever awarded was to two officers who did a runner with the colours from Isandhlwana. Assistant Commissary Dalton who was the real hero of Roarke's Drift didn't even get one until 13 years after the battle as he was from a common family. Lieutenant Chard and Lieutenant Bromhead came from well to do families so Queen Victoria bestowed the award on them instead. By all accounts these two were useless knobbers and that's from many of the troops who fought there including VC winners.

my bold they were not the first two ever awarded the first one's awarded were in the Crimea 1854-56 to Charles Lucas RN Isandhlwana was in January 1879
and Dalton was awarded his cross on the 16th of January 1880 almost One year after the battle not 13 years although his cross was gazzetted after the rest


Can anyone explain why Lucas' VC (& some other reciprients too) had a blue ribbon?
Lucas's VC and the other blue ribbon ones were won whilst in the Navy,they used to have two different colours one for Army and one for Navy. Edited cos I is a spaz.
 
minister_doh_nut said:
Fallschirmjager said:
I don't think H Jones deserved his VC either. There you go!

Is that why you shot him? :D :D :D

Well, that's another new keyboard. :D
 
PoisonDwarf said:
fingers_1661 said:
2) I'm pleased to see line regiments getting a mention. The Media spoonfeed Paras/Marines/SAS/Guards to the general public to such an extent that they regard the rest as 'also-rans' .

Remember the Black Watch were flavour of the month a couple of years ago. Bloody media!

...that particular author must've been an ex 'HAT:)
 
To be fair to FSJ, ten years of the Neu Arbeit regime is going to inject even the most loyal advocate of the 'system' with an unhealthy dosage of cynicism. And anything that involves a committee is going to have the shadow of politics hanging over it in some shape or form.
 

mike83

Clanker
Any discussion over our medal system will always be emotive as essentially our medals are rationed for each battle or period. As the war in Afghanistan becomes more and more intense perhaps the time has come to reintroduce "immediate awards". Having said all that I believe the proposed awards to the 2 Royal Anglians to be of the highest order and if awarded well deserved.

Many of you will have seen or heard of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia (PJM) and the very vitriolic public campaign conducted by a few members of the Fight4thePJM wallahs against the decision of the Honours and Decorations Committee (HDC). They use any available media source to insultingly accuse them of sheer incompetence, un- professionalism, being pro monarchy lickspittles, being anti forces hypocrites because they refuse to do what they are demanding.

As this is the same committee who will deliberate on the two leaked VC Citations and next round of Operational Awards, are those minority Fight4thePJM wallahs saying that because they refused them their request they are by extrapolation incapable of properly discharging any aspect of their Office? If so then those vitriolic few PJMers are casting very public doubt on the validity of all Gallantry Awards since 2003.

Personally I believe that the HDC have an unenviable task, they have to deal with all citations fairly and as the tempo of operations continues they can do without the very public abuse they receive from a very small but virulent group who, quite wrongly, claim to speak for all veterans.

Mike 83
 
topcat68 said:
fingers_1661 said:
balldrick said:
Fallschirmjager said:
Considering 626 were awarded in WWI and only 181 in WWII i'd say it is getting harder to be awarded the Victoria Cross. The first two ever awarded was to two officers who did a runner with the colours from Isandhlwana. Assistant Commissary Dalton who was the real hero of Roarke's Drift didn't even get one until 13 years after the battle as he was from a common family. Lieutenant Chard and Lieutenant Bromhead came from well to do families so Queen Victoria bestowed the award on them instead. By all accounts these two were useless knobbers and that's from many of the troops who fought there including VC winners.

my bold they were not the first two ever awarded the first one's awarded were in the Crimea 1854-56 to Charles Lucas RN Isandhlwana was in January 1879
and Dalton was awarded his cross on the 16th of January 1880 almost One year after the battle not 13 years although his cross was gazzetted after the rest


Can anyone explain why Lucas' VC (& some other reciprients too) had a blue ribbon?
Lucas's VC and the other blue ribbon ones were won whilst in the Navy,they used to have two different colours one for Army and one for Navy. Edited cos I is a spaz.

Dark blue for the Navy, Maroon for the Army, same cross, from the same source. The ribbon was standardised to maroon after the establishment of the RAF.
 
Nosher361 said:
PP - Why would P de la B's endorsement be dubious?, (genuine question). It was quite some time ago now, I can't remember the context, and don't know if he had a book out at the time, but he strikes me as a fairly 'straight-up' gent, and a soldier of great experience. I can't think of any advantage he could have gained from such an endorsement. And I can't think why he would have said it, if he didn't believe it.

I saw the Clarkson programme aswell, and he did make the case that over time it has become more difficult to win, and even more difficult to win it and live to collect it. But I can't recall him saying that this was because extreme bravery is becoming 'commonplace'. More because the rules governing it's award have gradually become more precise, and are rigorously applied. Extreme bravery is not commonplace, hence the rarity of the VC.


Sorry Nosher, Walt mode on , but my best man and a few acquaintances of mine served beneath him in the Gun Club, three of whom during Corporate, and their opinion, which a lesser person than they such as I am in a poor position to argue with, is that DLB would have trouble discerning bravery from the kind of venture that would make the Charge of the Light Brigade seem a well thought out plan. While I acknowledge that there is a hazy line between what some people would call heroism and others outright stupidity, DLB was, according to my friends, a little too willing to make people heroes. I am sure that DLB, like myself and countless others (except maybe FSJ) believe that Beharry fully desrved his VC.
That said, I stand in awe and respect of anyone with the VC, and acknowledge the fact that an ex-remf such as myself am not fit to tie their shoelaces.
Perhaps commonplace was a poor choice of word, but I would venture to say that extreme acts of courage are becoming more necessary in the current theatres and incidents which may in some peoples view warrant a VC do infact receive the recognition of an alternative medal for gallantry.
 
Its simple though. If the right people aren't there to see it then write it up. You could leopard crawl through the side of a BMP and eat the crew to death and you wouldn't get so much as a thankyou very much off HMG.

These lads have just been lucky/unlucky enough to have had the right officers around who can write a good story about what happened!!!
 
Well done the R Anglians, but also well done to the R Welch, the Woofers and the London Reg for proving that despite pi55 poor backing from our own government the British army is still the best
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Before the introduction of the VC there were few if any gallantry awards hence it was seemingly by todays standards liberally awarded. With the advent of the world wars and more people in uniform, more people fighting etc then the chances are for more awards. Following the 1st war I suspect with better literacy and recording of events and also tails outgrowing teeth in the arms fields then fewer candidates present themselves or fewer chances perhaps.
Rationing of awards per tour used to be acknowledged duringOp Banner. A senior at an incident involving loss of life would usually get an MiD. A senior at a major incident would get an MM/MC and the CO would get his OBE. What we as lads considered good drills would get the lance jack a GOC Commendation.
I recall the Crocus street shooting and the Senior rank in the patrol got a gong which mainly seemed at the time to be for getting under cover and giving a contact report from the front seat of his landrover whilst under fire!
So yes rationing happens but instant awards did also, I knew an Anglian that went aup a rank on 3 successive tours due to his immediate superior being shot! Iffy or what? He did the career courses after the tour and at least 2 candidates at SCBC post Falklands were battlefield promotions!
 
Aunty Stella said:
botfeckid said:
a genuinely avoidable, deliberate decision to put himself in harm's way in order to try and save a severely wounded oppo, whilst also taking time out to kill an irritating opponent.

That just put a smile on my face on an otherwise dull night :)

I reckon they should include those exact words in this mans very deserved citation.

Ditto that. 8)
 

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