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Does working hard still make you rich?

I had two works council reps working For me in my unit, oh joy. The Mrs had Germany, along with most of the rest of europe under her HR wing. Whilst she will tell you that Germany is difficult she would tell you that Italy is worse.

The US tends to be at will contracts so you can be out of the door at the whim of your boss. They better have a good reason though cos you can sue their arrses and receive a nice payout. Climb the ladder and you can negotiate your minimum termination package When you initially sign on. I know my Mrs has always had at least 6 months total package, including bonus, in her jobs here - damn fine if you get laid off and walk into another job a fortnight later;).

i am still amazed though how many supposedly hard charging, super negotiating Americans have no financial plan in place. Some seem to actively mis-manage their finances, regularly re-mortgage their homes, take loans for everything and borrow against their 401K (thats their pension pot). Then as a result they have to work till they drop some time in their 70’s if they live that long.
Unless you work for government, in which point once you make it through your year you are damn near minted. But the highest positions like my boss and on up are all at will employees. So they can be fired for no cause and election time can be interesting.
 

Hippohunter

War Hero
Does working hard pay? Only if self employed or if you have your own company otherwise you are working “for the man” and will get a far lesser proportion of the cake.
 
Entrepreneurial and hard working are not the same thing. Although successful entrepreneurs will always try to convince you they are.

The premise of the question is whether hard work will result in great wealth, answer, very simply, no.

If that were the case all the hard working people you know would be extremely wealthy and all the super-rich you know would be slaving at the coal face, 12 hours a day, six days a week.

As both of those propositions are demonstrably false we can only conclude there is little or no relation between vast wealth and hard work.

Bezos, Musk, Branson etc are classic examples of guys who made good on cashing in on a wave that was none of their making. None of them have done a hard days' work in 25 years or more. They are now simply rentiers cashing in on their good fortune in spotting a niche in the market or a trending curve during their youth and exploiting it. At the time they hit the jackpot there were countless other people, working just as hard if not harder in the same fields who didn't catch the wave and we never hear of them today, if hard work was key to great wealth those people too would be swanning on yachts in Monte Carlo.

During that brief period when they had their massive good fortune they probably worked liked dogs, but their exponential success since then bears no relation to any actual physical effort or sweat that they expend, good luck to them I do not resent their success, just don't try to tell me it's all down to their work ethic.

Vast wealth comes from luck, good connections, being in the right place at the right time, a willingness to shaft people, access to influence and many other factors, hard work is probably the least influential factor.
The underpinning premise of your diatribe is that you think that hard work is “physical effort and sweat”. It’s nonsense. No-one ever got rich from physical effort and sweat. They never have. They get rich from being entrepreneurial.

I’m privileged to know some very successful entrepreneurs. People who have created businesses that have made them exceedingly rich. But also that employ lots of other people. They never stop. Their life is pretty much consumed by their businesses however much is in the bank. They don’t stop because they can’t stop.

Of the entrepreneurs I listed let’s pick one. Musk. The idea that a man who founded or has driven Zip2, XCom, Spacex & Tesla hasn’t worked for 25 years is laughable.

The difference between entrepreneurs who have built mega businesses and those who haven’t is mostly about the want. Which leads to working ******* hard. Nothing to do with luck.
 

Chef

LE
The difference between entrepreneurs who have built mega businesses and those who haven’t is mostly about the want. Which leads to working ******* hard. Nothing to do with luck.

Whilst I agree that hard work is not necessarily physical, a busy stag on three nets sat on your arrse is hard work for example. I do disagree about luck.

let's look at Richard Branson, doubtless worked hard at the start, possibly a few deals that sailed close to the legal wind. He didn't get derailed by them and avoided a run in with the tax man in the 70s. He was lucky there.

First album Virgin release? 'Tubular bells' rather than Disco-Tex and the Sex-o-lets. That might have made him some money but not the same solid earner that Tubular Bells turns out to be. More luck.

He was savvy enough to get rid of the records when he saw that the days of 'Our tune' were numbered.

If Clive Sinclair had launched the C5 now rather than in the energy profligate ungreen 80s he might well be giving Musk a run for his money. Again luck.

Luck plays a part in everybody's life but while you can't rely on it, you can encourage it.
 
The underpinning premise of your diatribe is that you think that hard work is “physical effort and sweat”. It’s nonsense. No-one ever got rich from physical effort and sweat. They never have. They get rich from being entrepreneurial.

I’m privileged to know some very successful entrepreneurs. People who have created businesses that have made them exceedingly rich. But also that employ lots of other people. They never stop. Their life is pretty much consumed by their businesses however much is in the bank. They don’t stop because they can’t stop.

Of the entrepreneurs I listed let’s pick one. Musk. The idea that a man who founded or has driven Zip2, XCom, Spacex & Tesla hasn’t worked for 25 years is laughable.

The difference between entrepreneurs who have built mega businesses and those who haven’t is mostly about the want. Which leads to working ******* hard. Nothing to do with luck.
And your underlying premise is that entrepreneurial skills equate to hard work.

They don't.

If you have that skill and you are a successful entrepreneur you can make a lot of money (as you can if you have good singing skills, footballing skills or gambling skills) initially through nice deals and an eye for the market, and then leverage that money through connections, sharp elbows, investment, tax avoidance, corruption, rent seeking, market manipulation and simple good timing (otherwise known as good luck) into a vast fortune. If you do so, I bear you no ill-will and I will not resent your vast wealth, just don't try to convince me it's hard work.

Your accountants work hard, as do your lawyers, your tax advisers, your hangers-on, your agents and assorted specialists, but you aren't working hard.
 
Interesting article on that recently. Chuck Schwab did some survey type thingy recently and it threw up that most people believe they have hit it rich if they are worth $2.3 million spondoolicks.


In my experience the US is a very "Keep up with the Joneses" (no offence Jonesy) culture. Everyone has to have a car, everyone has to have a pick up, a motorcycle, a jetski if you live in Florida, an iPhone, a huge flat screen TV, etc, etc, etc. The Mrs, who works in the personal finance sector, tells me that the average household here has debt of $60K on top of their mortgage, if they have one, that is the average........we don't have debt so someone has out share.

I know senior executives who are in huge debt, huge. They want to send the kids to just the right university, get a car for each kid because their friends will talk if they don't, go on that holiday to Cabo every year, have that boat in the marina, along with the big Harley they ride 4 times a year, the wives all need a housekeeper because they can't possibly do the housework with their expensive manicure, and it goes on. But, yeah, I know a couple of blokes who earn, with bonus around $350K a year, who could not lay their hands on a $1000 bucks if they went begging at the bank.

The wifes biggest issue at work is people coming to her for pay advances and having to fcuk them off - something that rarely ever used to happen in the UK. As an FYI for UK residents; unlike the UK where you get paid monthly in the US most get paid fortnightly here because if they were paid monthly they would starve during the last two weeks of the months.

We live a sensible frugal lifestyle here, no cleaner, shop around for everything, don't try to impress the neighbours, and tuck the money away for retirement.

I know a guy who is worth several million and making $2.5 - 3 million a year for about 10 hours work a week. If he feels the need, he takes on another project.They do 1st class on all of the trips they take and since last year - its all private jet/turbo props.

Financially he is very wealthy, but he doesn’t think so. As life goes... he is destitute. He is exhausted, lonely and depressed. He is currently paying $11k a month for his wife to be nailed by a beach volleyball player as they are 'on a break' and she wanted a beach house for the summer.

I know a school mate from the U.K, never had a job in his whole life. Always working some side deal, milking the system. He is a regular in a few pubs, kennel clubs, has a few girlfriends (plus a live in) and takes two holidays a year. On paper he has nothing, but I guarantee he wont die of stress induced heart attack.

2.3 Million total worth?? ... Scarily, it doesn't seem that much here in the U.S.
 
And your underlying premise is that entrepreneurial skills equate to hard work.

They don't.


If you have that skill and you are a successful entrepreneur you can make a lot of money (as you can if you have good singing skills, footballing skills or gambling skills) initially through nice deals and an eye for the market, and then leverage that money through connections, sharp elbows, investment, tax avoidance, corruption, rent seeking, market manipulation and simple good timing (otherwise known as good luck) into a vast fortune. If you do so, I bear you no ill-will and I will not resent your vast wealth, just don't try to convince me it's hard work.

Your accountants work hard, as do your lawyers, your tax advisers, your hangers-on, your agents and assorted specialists, but you aren't working hard.

You dont know any entrepreneurs I assume.
 
I know a guy who is worth several million and making $2.5 - 3 million a year for about 10 hours work a week. If he feels the need, he takes on another project.They do 1st class on all of the trips they take and since last year - its all private jet/turbo props.

Financially he is very wealthy, but he doesn’t think so. As life goes... he is destitute. He is exhausted, lonely and depressed. He is currently paying $11k a month for his wife to be nailed by a beach volleyball player as they are 'on a break' and she wanted a beach house for the summer.

I know a school mate from the U.K, never had a job in his whole life. Always working some side deal, milking the system. He is a regular in a few pubs, kennel clubs, has a few girlfriends (plus a live in) and takes two holidays a year. On paper he has nothing, but I guarantee he wont die of stress induced heart attack.

2.3 Million total worth?? ... Scarily, it doesn't seem that much here in the U.S.

I dunno about that.

If I had 2.3 million I could pay some stuff off and be a professional lawn chair sitter and beer drinker.
 

endure

GCM
The underpinning premise of your diatribe is that you think that hard work is “physical effort and sweat”. It’s nonsense. No-one ever got rich from physical effort and sweat. They never have. They get rich from being entrepreneurial.

Indeed. My Grandad did hard physical work his whole life and didn't end up rich. He was a miner...
 
....and dead within 6 months...maybe!!

Nope, I would imagine I would be a professional house dad with more time to hit the gym and the range. I might even get a side gig at one of the local outdoor stores or a liquor store to have free money.

But having all the bills paid off and having an easy 1.5 million in a trust would do much for the peace of mind.
 
The underpinning premise of your diatribe is that you think that hard work is “physical effort and sweat”. It’s nonsense. No-one ever got rich from physical effort and sweat. They never have. They get rich from being entrepreneurial.

I’m privileged to know some very successful entrepreneurs. People who have created businesses that have made them exceedingly rich. But also that employ lots of other people. They never stop. Their life is pretty much consumed by their businesses however much is in the bank. They don’t stop because they can’t stop.

Of the entrepreneurs I listed let’s pick one. Musk. The idea that a man who founded or has driven Zip2, XCom, Spacex & Tesla hasn’t worked for 25 years is laughable.

The difference between entrepreneurs who have built mega businesses and those who haven’t is mostly about the want. Which leads to working ******* hard. Nothing to do with luck.

Bullshit! Grafting is a major part of it, but being in the right place, at the right time, can catapult you from "wealthy" to "rich".
 
You dont know any entrepreneurs I assume.
I'm from a family of entrepreneurs, we made a killing on the property market, mostly the result of riding a property boom that was none of our making, our cosy connections to bankers, accountants, agents and lawyers, an ability to scratch people's backs and a bit of inside knowledge and whom to pay the commission to get things done.

Huge fun, and very rewarding but hard work? What, like digging coal for eight hours in a black hole a mile underground? Fighting a bushfire? Working 10 hours in a busy restaurant kitchen? Wiping the ass of an 86yo woman in a care home? Cutting up beef carcasses?

Not so much.

Anyway you miss my point, I am not saying there aren't hardworking entrepreneurs (indeed I cited Mr Patel in his corner shop), I said that hard work and entrepreneurship are not necessarily synonymous, you can be a successful entrepreneur and do nothing more than click icons on a computer screen all day.
 
I'm from a family of entrepreneurs, we made a killing on the property market, mostly the result of riding a property boom that was none of our making, our cosy connections to bankers, accountants, agents and lawyers, an ability to scratch people's backs and a bit of inside knowledge and whom to pay the commission to get things done.

Huge fun, and very rewarding but hard work? What, like digging coal for eight hours in a black hole a mile underground? Fighting a bushfire? Working 10 hours in a busy restaurant kitchen? Wiping the ass of an 86yo woman in a care home? Cutting up beef carcasses?

Not so much.

Anyway you miss my point, I am not saying there aren't hardworking entrepreneurs (indeed I cited Mr Patel in his corner shop), I said that hard work and entrepreneurship are not necessarily synonymous, you can be a successful entrepreneur and do nothing more than click icons on a computer screen all day.

One of my buddies is a market analyst for banks...he taps icons all day. He also works at least 80-90 hours a week. He has his own consulting company and is obviously an exception to your rule.
 
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I know a guy who is worth several million and making $2.5 - 3 million a year for about 10 hours work a week. If he feels the need, he takes on another project.They do 1st class on all of the trips they take and since last year - its all private jet/turbo props.

Financially he is very wealthy, but he doesn’t think so. As life goes... he is destitute. He is exhausted, lonely and depressed. He is currently paying $11k a month for his wife to be nailed by a beach volleyball player as they are 'on a break' and she wanted a beach house for the summer.

I know a school mate from the U.K, never had a job in his whole life. Always working some side deal, milking the system. He is a regular in a few pubs, kennel clubs, has a few girlfriends (plus a live in) and takes two holidays a year. On paper he has nothing, but I guarantee he wont die of stress induced heart attack.

2.3 Million total worth?? ... Scarily, it doesn't seem that much here in the U.S.

Chuck says $2.3million is a good number.

I would like to see how they came to the number myself, what the breakdown of the interviewed SEG's is, their income levels, where they live, and where they would expect to live on their $2.3million. To someone working in In n Out on $28K a year the person on $45K a year is minting it, even though they are the most junior, coffee and sandwich collecting office gopher in their company. To the kiddo on $45K a year the junior lawyer in the legal department on $150K a year is a veritable office mogul. It is all perceptions and expectations.
 
One of my buddies is a market analyst for banks...he taps icons all day. He also works 80-90 hours a week. He has his own consulting company and is obviously an exception your your rule.
You clearly want to believe that I am a social justice warrior raging against the capitalist system, rest assured I am not, the capitalist system has served me well.

I merely want to answer the question, as I think I may have done a page or two back, does hard work make you rich?

The answer is self-evidently, no.

Before we got into the property business my family ran a pub, now feck me, that was hard work, loading barrels out the yard, piling up crates in all weathers, cleaning toilets on Christmas morning in readiness for the arrival of punters who would be going back to happy jumper-wearing Christmas dinners while we mopped the puke up after they left.

That was hard work, it didn't make us rich. But it gave us the chance to be rich, and we wouldn't have to work hard.

Go back to the original question at the start of the thread, does working hard make you rich? No, it might give you a boost, but on the whole it will play a very secondary role to other factors.
 
You clearly want to believe that I am a social justice warrior raging against the capitalist system, rest assured I am not, the capitalist system has served me well.

I merely want to answer the question, as I think I may have done a page or two back, does hard work make you rich?

The answer is self-evidently, no.

Before we got into the property business my family ran a pub, now feck me, that was hard work, loading barrels out the yard, piling up crates in all weathers, cleaning toilets on Christmas morning in readiness for the arrival of punters who would be going back to happy jumper-wearing Christmas dinners while we mopped the puke up after they left.

That was hard work, it didn't make us rich. But it gave us the chance to be rich, and we wouldn't have to work hard.

Go back to the original question at the start of the thread, does working hard make you rich? No, it might give you a boost, but on the whole it will play a very secondary role to other factors.

........and there is the golden ticket for the ordinary bloke in the street, or that notional person on the Clapham omnibus, the property business.

When all else eludes you, or you can't invent that new widget everyone will buy, then step into the property business - buying, selling, fixing up, renting, whatever. I have done well out of fixing places up, moving in and ultimately shifting them on, all nice tax free income, thank you very much. Now that I have no more child care responsibilities as they are all of age I am embarking on a build next year. The option is in for the land which will be paid in full in January once the roads and services are in, my contractor will do the heavy lifting of supervising the build, but I will be on site every day to watch and learn so that for the next one the bank will let me act as the main contractor. It is not hard physical work, it is the ability to manage a project, ensuring that the right bloke is on site at the right time with the right materials to hand.

It is not rocket science, it may take you out of your comfort zone, but it can make you decent money.

The daughter is a gopping student in a shared house in the UK. Notionally a 2 up 2 down terraced house that has had an attic conversion done and the front room is used as a bedroom/bedsit too - so a 2 bed house has been converted to a 4 bed house with one shared kitchen/diner for rental purposes. 4 kiddies each paying 90 quid a week, half rent over the summer months, but it still equates to around 47 weeks at 90 quid * 4 = 16,920 quid a year........for something that is costing the owner maximally 8,400 a year in mortgage payments. Think about it.
 
The crazy thing is $2.3 million isn’t really a “set for life” amount of money especially here. You would still need a decent job.
 
Rubbish. There are lots of people who have got quietly very wealthy through building successful businesses. Nothing fancy, just a well run, scaleable, properly entrepreneurial businesses. They’re not crooks, nor do they have anyone in their pocket.

Some of them go on to be mega-rich. Some just filthy rich. And some just rich. What they pretty much all have is an overwhelming work ethic. They do work huge hours; most successful entrepreneurs never stop or switch off. It’s all consuming.

This is how it is in the company I work at. The average age is pretty high, over forty I think, across forty-two people so effective and intelligent effort is standard. I was responsible for a mini-project moving paper-based production time-tracking into a database system, for better forecasting and planning. I was worried about a lot of anomalous entries showing work-activities finishing after one in the morning, and running all of Sunday -- however, the worker IDs were those of the two company owners, trying (and succeeding) to reduce the pressure on the staff during a busy few months.

The company has now had two record breaking months, and the new HR person is the exception to the rule and has managed to find three good, reliable, knowledgable new staff after months of failure by an external recruitment agency. University-linked research projects are increasing, which often lead to production programs, and some new machinery is coming in. All due to non-stop effort by the business owners at a noticeably higher level than everyone else (and there are no slackers).
 

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