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Does the RAF regiment have a future?

Yarra

Old-Salt
What about all of the other infrastructure that needs guarding? Do the Navy have a regiment that guard SPODs? I don't think the Future Commando Force will spend much time on stag. We don't need a stagging on force. If (as would be right) the RAF gets its budget slashed, they shoud be forced to drag themselves into the 21st century. UAVs and not having the SRDG would be a start.

Hilarious.. 'cos the FCF ME isn't to act as the Andrew's high-readiness, forward contingency force, at the core of Littoral Response?

I would have thought that if any key RN asset was exposed enough in any kind of dodgy berth, the Andrew would just sail said BFO floating tower block over the horizon, out of harms way?

Try that with a Crab DOB.. It'd be like trying to herd cats into a cement mixer...

Apples v Pears.
 

Yarra

Old-Salt
As I have previously admitted on here I was once guilty of saving* the RAF Regt in ‘92 when Army Plans was trying to make the case for binning the Rockapes. They rather disingenuously put up a couple of Scottish batallions as being ‘for the chop’ thinking that would sway Rifkind. Your two points here were exactly the argument I used.

I’m not sure about ‘swollen’ though. I’m talking nearly 30 years ago (gulp) but in those pre-‘Options’ days there were, as an example, only 4 RAF Regt Group Captains, compared to 49 Admin Branch ones.

* In my defence I did find 5000 other crab jobs to cull, being various posts that had no war role,

Top post Bob.

Probably for the best re the Groupies... 4 'steely eyed' orcs wandering the second floor at AIR is probably plenty enough for the adults to have to endure. As for the admin branch, ...meh.

BTW, was the Discip Branch part of your 5K cull?

Y
 

Yarra

Old-Salt
If you think losing a plane with a hundred people on it is a key risk, you've misunderstood what fighting an actual war is.

We're not in the limited intervention game any more - we are proving to Ivan that if he crosses the border, he'll get a smack in the grid.

Luckily for us Socky, you don't get to define what 'strategic failure'* is. We are still in the limited intervention game, as well as the peer+ game. Wars by proxy won't fight themselves, as I've no doubt you are v aware.

*I suspect that @Richard_Hannay might be able to give the correct definition?

Y
 
We're not in the limited intervention game any more - we are proving to Ivan that if he crosses the border, he'll get a smack in the grid
shame no ones told the treasuery that
 

Alamo

LE
The USAF Security Forces is also probably closer to an amalgam of the MPGS and the RAF Police rather than the RAF Regiment - no matter how much the latter love little jollies to Mildenhall and Lakenheath to pretend otherwise. I've worked directly alongside USAF SF in HERRICK.
You worked with a USAF SF unit in HER, and have pretty limited view of what they do. The analogy with the RAF in particular is superficially correct but stands no real scrutiny.
 
If you think losing a plane with a hundred people on it is a key risk, you've misunderstood what fighting an actual war is.

We're not in the limited intervention game any more - we are proving to Ivan that if he crosses the border, he'll get a smack in the grid.

Losing a Squadron of F-35 and two Squadrons of Typhoon through relatively small numbers of Ru SOF acting as SOF should is also not acceptable.
 
Top post Bob.

Probably for the best re the Groupies... 4 'steely eyed' orcs wandering the second floor at AIR is probably plenty enough for the adults to have to endure. As for the admin branch, ...meh.

BTW, was the Discip Branch part of your 5K cull?

Y

I think so. There was a BFO spreadsheet that had posts in peace and war. I just searched for the ones that had ‘STO’ against their war role.
 
Losing a Squadron of F-35 and two Squadrons of Typhoon through relatively small numbers of Ru SOF acting as SOF should is also not acceptable.
The SRDG couldn't keep a small number of blokes in dresses out of a walled fortress with miles of empty dessert all around. I'm not sure how they'd fare against an enemy that actually knew what they are doing in a less prepared environment.
 

Yarra

Old-Salt
The SRDG couldn't keep a small number of blokes in dresses out of a walled fortress with miles of empty dessert all around. I'm not sure how they'd fare against an enemy that actually knew what they are doing in a less prepared environment.

Yeah, the SRDG really shot themselves in the foot (SWIDT?) when they assumed Terry would be thwarted by 5KM of butter scotch Angel Delight! ;)
 

Maple

LE
This again? Much as I like taking the piss out of the Rocks (as an ex-'Guin) they're ours at the end of the day, They're not completely stupid and they don't smell as bad as the Infantry.....so, on balance, we'll kept them.

If the MoD is looking to save money why not get-rid of that lot on horses? So last-century but one.
 
This again? Much as I like taking the piss out of the Rocks (as an ex-'Guin) they're ours at the end of the day, They're not completely stupid and they don't smell as bad as the Infantry.....so, on balance, we'll kept them.

If the MoD is looking to save money why not get-rid of that lot on horses? So last-century but one.
So that last bit, I agree with.
 
I’m not sure about ‘swollen’ though. I’m talking nearly 30 years ago (gulp) but in those pre-‘Options’ days there were, as an example, only 4 RAF Regt Group Captains, compared to 49 Admin Branch ones.

I understand there is 12 Regt Group Captains now, when the RAF is at <32k.
 
cummi
Cummings will . . . . . [etcetera]
. . . . be here today, but gone tomorrow, IMHO.

By contrast, the Institutions that make up the Army (and I guess, Defence) are big; high-mass, high-density organsims.

Overcoming that inertia, and generating forward motion is required.

Cummings don't got the leadership skills or the mandate to achieve that.

If he's got the mandate I'd want to know how. He's an advisor, not an executive.,

I'd also like to see him advance the agenda, given that there's a dearth of evidence that says he's a top-notch Ninja in leading successful transformational change in mahoosive organisations . . . .
 
Actually, I don't have a problem with 6 RAF Regt Field Sqns. I think that is about right. I base that on 1 Sqn to protect a DOB in a HERRICK/TELIC scenario, 3 for a trg/deploy cycle to generate 1 down route - and the ability to do it in 2 theatres at once. That makes 6. Last time I was in Kabul as best as I could tell the FP Coy at KAIA was a scratch unit of IAs with heavy reservist makeup. That's not going to cut it to air marshals with next gen aircraft to keep safe on the ground, especially after the Bastion attack.

Thing is, whilst I believe we absolutely should have such capability, and other capability like carriers with organic UK escort packages and airborne troops and arty that outranges Ivan - the question has to be, can we currently afford to pay for it and are we likely to get into an operating environment where we would do TELIC/HERRICK again?

I think UK PLC is out of the expeditionary game and thus will never be putting its valuable next gen aircraft in such a position where dedicated FP is needed by Air because the Army thinks FP is a job for second line troops in a rear ech. Even in TELIC and HERRICK, the DOBs were in the middle of an AOR for a much punchier Bde strength formation that could have been given the explicit task to SECURE the DOB in its midst.

In short, 6 Field Sqns could be subsumed by the Army, their recruits could go to ATRs and ITC instead of Halton/Honington, all their bespoke doctrine could fall out of Army PAMs and all the excessively heavy trg staffs and HQ could be a saving.

Rumour on the Air streets (everywhere outside Honington where the discussion of relevance is strictly verboten) is they'll lose a minimum 2 Field Sqns in the Integrated Review.
 
I think UK PLC is out of the expeditionary game and thus will never be putting its valuable next gen aircraft in such a position where dedicated FP
Yet we have just committed a light Cav sqn to Mali and have had a detachment of three Chinooks there supporting the French. How long before we get sucked into to that shit storm. Look how we ended up getting sucked into Bosnia. In 1993 it was just the Cheshire battle group escorting UN aid convoys. By 1995 we were having artillery duels with the Bosnian Serbs.
 
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Maple

LE
My old boss told me a story from when he was at MoD, bag carrier for a three-star.

He was at a meeting when the PM told the CDS* that he wanted to deploy the military to x as there was an ongoing civil war, and as we were the former colonial power it was up to us to sort it out.

The CDS thought for a moment and said something like "OK, which Op do you want us to pull out of, Afghanistan or Iraq? The PM was suitably shocked and said, "no, this is additional tasking" The CDS then pointed-out we were funded and equipped for two out-of-area deployments at any one time, and that we didn't have the kit or manpower.

At this point you'd think my little story has a happy ending, the PM realised either we really couldn't deploy given the resources and current defence policy or he would instigate a budget increase to expand and equip the Armed Forces to be capable of three OOA ops at a time.

How do you think it went? Yep, CDS had to back-down, what? You thought common sense would prevail? Oh you poor, sweet innocent boobies!

* Might not have been the CDS, but some other grown-up - I have taken drink since Phil told me the tale
 
Yet we have just committed a light Cav sqn to Mali and have had a detachment of three Chinooks there supporting the French. How long before we get sucked into to that shit storm. Look how we ended up getting sucked into Bosnia. In 1993 it was just the Cheshire battle group escorting UN aid convoys. By 1995 we were having artillery duels with the Bosnian Serbs.

I say 'never putting its valuable next gen aircraft in such a position where dedicated FP is needed by air' and you respond with some chat about a small det of 3 1960s rotary assets.

If RAF Regt doctrinaires are hanging their hats on guarding that sort of thing they're fucked.

If you think Mali is going to have mission creep like some of our historical classics I'm not sure you've considered the precedents of Syria or Libya where there was zero appetite in parliament for boots on the ground.

Actually Libya is probably a more pertinent example. The Tornado Force operated out of Marham - in the UK where RAF Regt don't provide any security - and when Biggles got fed up of going home to wife and kids post sortie, they upped sticks to... Italy... also not secured by RAF Regt.

In the future however, any air ops within flying time of the Med, I would probably wager, will take place from UK CV, and unless RAF Regt develop a maritime capability, they won't be securing that either.

And whilst I'm sure they'll attempt to spin some 'downed pilot recovery' from on board the carriers, unless already built into the planning, they'll find the Navy's absolute reluctance to find extra berths on board for stuff they had not already considered, a problem.
 
If you think losing a plane with a hundred people on it is a key risk, you've misunderstood what fighting an actual war is.

We're not in the limited intervention game any more - we are proving to Ivan that if he crosses the border, he'll get a smack in the grid.

Last time I looked, we have a few operations ongoing that are precisely that and the 3rd Shock Army is a mere footnote in history. Baring a war of UK national survival and I'll happily wager that there won't be one in my lifetime, being part of a risk and loss averse nation is a fundamental part of our operating conditions and that includes anything that we may do on behalf of the East Europeans.
 
In short, 6 Field Sqns could be subsumed by the Army, their recruits could go to ATRs and ITC instead of Halton/Honington, all their bespoke doctrine could fall out of Army PAMs and all the excessively heavy trg staffs and HQ could be a saving.


The RAF Regiment will reach a point where it is below critical mass to own its own bespoke training organisation, no reason why it shouldn't make use of the Army for the Land bit of its training, but the RAF Regiment needs to remain owned by the Light Blue. Churchill was right.
 

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