Does the RAF regiment have a future?

green_slime

War Hero
They're more than 'defend airfields' - respectfully that exposes the limitations in Land's thinking.

It's more than 'defend a patch of ground with an airfield in it'.

It starts to top out at 'bespoke deliverers of FP in accordance with NATO doctrine on behalf of Air'.

It also gives Air a nice pool of bodies/JPANs that can be held in reserve in case a sacrifice is needed for a future Defence cut (sorry I mean well thought out review). CDS a fish-head? Oof.
so I am reading, no, no and no.

After the experience of the RN with this 1SL, if you think a few Raf Regt PIDs will be enough, then there is a surprise coming. All 1*+Offrs should start dusting off their CVs.
 
so I am reading, no, no and no.

After the experience of the RN with this 1SL, if you think a few Raf Regt PIDs will be enough, then there is a surprise coming. All 1*+Offrs should start dusting off their CVs.

Well I was implying the whole lot - 1850. Which is over 5% of the RAF's 33k and a bit. So yes I thing a few Regt PIDs will be enough, unless you think he has the capacity and clout to do more?
 
Off topic - The capitation rate of a MDP constable is significantly more than that of a RAFP A/Cpl. Whilst their high end capabilities - AFO/SFO (firearms Quals) and constabulary powers bring something more, they're not as flexible for defence. 'Undercut' is a bit strong.
Depends on return of service, RAFP and RAF fire for example cost of training up a replacement every so many years while a civvy could serve 40 years with only needing re cert courses.
 
Depends on return of service, RAFP and RAF fire for example cost of training up a replacement every so many years while a civvy could serve 40 years with only needing re cert courses.

I don't think capitation rates do include return of service. Wages alone the MDP would be more expensive. A constable tops out at 39k in 6 years and a SAC/A/Cpl - who would be comparable in terms of who does the role, tops out at 30k. Even acknowledging there are substantive Cpls doing armed dog handling roles, they top out at 35k. I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are other factors like perhaps MDP having a figure of 6 to man a 24hr post - compared to say MPGS figure of 5. And then as pointed out you can't tell the MDP constable to go down route to a shit hole for 6 months, or go and fill sandbags or some such MACA task.

Its OT so I'll check out of this aspect of the conversation now, but MDP are not cheap nor cheaper nor more flexible, which is why they're employed only in niche roles. By which I mean heightened interactions with the public (usually protestors) so constables, but arms required against the threat.
 
I don't think capitation rates do include return of service. Wages alone the MDP would be more expensive. A constable tops out at 39k in 6 years and a SAC/A/Cpl - who would be comparable in terms of who does the role, tops out at 30k. Even acknowledging there are substantive Cpls doing armed dog handling roles, they top out at 35k. I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are other factors like perhaps MDP having a figure of 6 to man a 24hr post - compared to say MPGS figure of 5. And then as pointed out you can't tell the MDP constable to go down route to a shit hole for 6 months, or go and fill sandbags or some such MACA task.

Its OT so I'll check out of this aspect of the conversation now, but MDP are not cheap nor cheaper nor more flexible, which is why they're employed only in niche roles. By which I mean heightened interactions with the public (usually protestors) so constables, but arms required against the threat.
Swings and roundabouts TBH,lots of costs not seen with service posts.
 
They're more than 'defend airfields' - respectfully that exposes the limitations in Land's thinking.

It's more than 'defend a patch of ground with an airfield in it'.

It starts to top out at 'bespoke deliverers of FP in accordance with NATO doctrine on behalf of Air'.
Dress it up in whatever concepts and doctrine jargon bollocks you like. It’s still defending airfields - no more, no less.

‘CAGE’……. Guffaw.
 
Dress it up in whatever concepts and doctrine jargon bollocks you like. It’s still defending airfields - no more, no less.

‘CAGE’……. Guffaw.

Pray tell us your experience of defending airfields.

Infantry - it’s just laying in a field and shooting your rifle.

Artillery - It’s just stuffing things in a steel tube and pulling a lever.
 
Dress it up in whatever concepts and doctrine jargon bollocks you like. It’s still defending airfields - no more, no less.

‘CAGE’……. Guffaw.

Umm, I have to confess, whilst not an expert, I've always thought defending a city would be more complicated than defending a village. A 3 story house more complicated than a bungalow. Similarly, on that basis, defence of an airfield is more complicated than a patch of ground. Add in a need to deconflict active flight ops.

Whatever one's thoughts on the 'concepts and doctrine jargon bollocks' as you put it, it is recognised UK doctrine. And with sufficient buy-in for CAS to keep funding 1850 RAF Regt as opposed to contracting it out to the Army. So pretty effective doctrine.

I think also I've been fairly neutral about the merits or otherwise of said doctrine, you hopefully would be hard pushed to work out if I have drunk CAGE Koolaid or if I find it all pish.

The point I keep returning to is no one has suggested anything better either as an armchair strategist here, or to CAS/CDS in real life.
 

auggie rock

Old-Salt
Umm, I have to confess, whilst not an expert, I've always thought defending a city would be more complicated than defending a village. A 3 story house more complicated than a bungalow. Similarly, on that basis, defence of an airfield is more complicated than a patch of ground. Add in a need to deconflict active flight ops.

Whatever one's thoughts on the 'concepts and doctrine jargon bollocks' as you put it, it is recognised UK doctrine. And with sufficient buy-in for CAS to keep funding 1850 RAF Regt as opposed to contracting it out to the Army. So pretty effective doctrine.

I think also I've been fairly neutral about the merits or otherwise of said doctrine, you hopefully would be hard pushed to work out if I have drunk CAGE Koolaid or if I find it all pish.

The point I keep returning to is no one has suggested anything better either as an armchair strategist here, or to CAS/CDS in real life.
Have you not been following this? You mustn't let reason and common sense into the discussion!! :)
 

auggie rock

Old-Salt
If they did not exist now, would they invent an RAF Regt?
I think you've hit it on the head there. The requirement for what they like to call "air-minded" infantry is certainly diminished but the need to defend air assets will continue and the need to "dominate" the ground around air fields and under approaches may return. However, having now returned the CBRN role to the army, and with no immediate prospect of sandy conflicts on the horizon, the RAF Reg has returned to concentrating on protecting air assets. The additional stuff (like parachute capability, MERT, providing forward air control etc) maybe doesn't justify so many Squadrons anymore. Those with vested interests are obviously aware of the need to evolve - as is shown by the current move to embed Flights of "green" RAFP into Regt Field Squadrons. But then, I'm just what Kefi calls a weekend warrior so I should probably STFU.
 

philc

LE
Whilst no expert, I have marched around this parade ground practicing for some big knobs funeral, reverse Arms or what ever to many days to care. It’s not a bad effort, they swing their arms in time and all stop at once, and some shouty blokes gets to shout.



 

Wee Hawken

War Hero
And yet some of those from 101st Airborne say it was the easiest jump they ever did.
Yes you're right really. The bulk of the force (incl pretty much all of the US elements) landed largely unopposed on Day 1. Those who had to jump in on subsequent days however (4 Para Bde and the Polish Bde) had a very different experience.
 

P.O.N.T.I

War Hero

conjurer

Old-Salt
A Mong on ARRSE @Dan Gleebles says it was BIG timing, here is the reality.




II Sqn was flown in three RAF C-130 Hercules transport aircraft from Ascension Island, and parachuted onto a Drop Zone at Yongro, near Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone. The drop was part of a series of military demonstrations that were carried out by the British military to demonstrate the UK’s commitment to the Sierra Leone Government and to reassure the people of Sierra Leone.

Image shows a group shot of RAF personnel on the ramp of an RAF Hercules aircraft.
The drop was part of a series of military demonstrations that were carried out by the British military.
These demonstrations of military capability were intended to send a clear message to the Rebel United Front and their Liberian backers, who were threatening the stability of the country, that British Forces could arrive at any time and place and conduct aggressive military operations if required.

The drop was planned as intelligence had uncovered that a meeting was planned between an RUF leader and his Liberian backers to discuss illegal diamond trading. The drop was therefore well publicised and was watched by the President of Sierra Leone, Ahmad Kabbah his Minister of Defence and Chief of Police as well as many journalists. As a consequence, there was widespread media coverage at the time and as a result the meeting between the RUF and the Liberians did not happen.

Image shows two members of II Squadron RAF Regiment in the back of the Hercules aircraft.
The parachute drop was the first British mass-parachute airborne operation since Suez in 1956.
After landing, the Gunners of II Squadron carried out some joint activities with UNAMSIL military personnel from the deployed United Nations mission in Sierra Leone and also carried out public demonstrations of the General Purpose Machine Gun and Mortars together with some jungle patrols.

Operation Silkman was the last phase of the British military action to support the Government of Sierra Leone the successful campaign against the Rebel United Front. The parachute drop followed on from a large scale amphibious assault demonstration that the British military had carried out the previous November. Op Silkman ended the following year with the Sierra Leone Government and their military in control of the country.

Having ascertained this was the first mass parachute airborne operation since Suez - with a tenuous exaggeration over OPERATIONAL - I would have thought PURPLESTAR in 1996 in USA delivered the largest mass British parachute drop in many years. I vividly remember 20+ ac, engines turning, at Cherry Point as the the troops walked across the apron to board, the mass of rigged MSPs and even the asslt tps deployed by heli. The ac chucked out their paras over the DZ and returned to Cherry Point for more.

No match for a 3 ship operational demonstration of mass by the RAF Regt but impressive nonetheless.

I note the following from the RAF Regt narrative above; The drop was therefore well publicised and was watched by the President of Sierra Leone, Ahmad Kabbah his Minister of Defence and Chief of Police as well as many journalist. I suspect the the author knew he was stretching the truth a wee bit but also recognised that history is all about the story.
 
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Kefi

War Hero
Having ascertained this was the first mass parachute airborne operation since Suez - with a tenuous exaggeration over OPERATIONAL - I would have thought PURPLESTAR in 1996 in USA delivered the largest mass British parachute drop in many years. I vividly remember 20+ ac, engines turning, at Cherry Point as the the troops walked across the apron to board, all the MSPs and the asslt tps deployed by heli.

Mate I have not a fuckin clue, I was not there it was not me. Who dictates these reports & makes the comparisons is a question better asked somewhere else. For this is Arrse & you will not get much sense out of the hard of thinkingo_O
 
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