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Does The British Media Have an "Obama complex"?

Tommy said:
I think we're done here.

I agree but not for the "reasons" you cite. You accuse me of "concrete" thinking but you continue to parrot "progressive" talking points without any real discussion of the relative merits of the issues involved. If having Constitutional (and yes, ultimately Biblical, as I am one of those cretins who still cling to their guns and Bibles) principles on which to base analysis and solve issues is being "concrete" I am guilty as charged and under your apparent regime should be hustled off to the American Gulag.

I suppose by now I should tire of being amazed at such antics but call me an eternal optimist--hoping for more that appears possible.

But as you pithily say, we are done here.
 
Oil_Slick said:
Interesting fact…

All the Western countries with the 'evil' of 'Socialized Medicine' as the Yanks hysterically call it have longer life expectancies than Americans who allegedly have access to the best healthcare money can buy…


Hmmmm…


Seems that there may be something in this 'Socialized Healthcare' thing.

Your observations of course depend on how statistics are manipulated.

For example:

The life expectancy and infant mortality rates are not ways to judge health care systems. For example the U.S. has a much higher homicide rate than many countries. The U.S. homicide rate was 5.9 per 100,000 in 2004, compared to 1.64 in France and 0.98 in Germany. The U.S. also has more car wreck fatalities, 14.24 per 100,000 compared with 7.4 in France and 6.19 in Germany. Robert Ohsfeldt of Texas A&M Univ. and John Schneider of the Univ. of Iowa recently concluded that Americans who don't die homicides or car wrecks outlive people in every other Western Country.(The Top Ten Myths of American Health Care, by Sally Pipes)

The infant mortality rate is also skewed. The WHO defines a live birth as any infant, once removed from the mother"breaths or shows any other evidence of life, such as the beating of the heart..." The U.S. counts any sign of life, regardless of weight or prematurity. So the great advances in the U.S. in saving premature babies actually hurts their WHO ranking.
Breast cancer mortality rankings, percent who die after getting the disease: France 35%, Germany 31%, U.S. 25%. Prostate cancer: France 49%, Germany 44% U.S. 19%. (Lives at Risk, Goodman, Musgrave, Herrick).

I point this out not to open a new version of Mutually Assured Destruction in terms of such things, but merely to show that such comparisons are so susceptible to manipulation by proponents of both sides of these issues.

As I also have consistently said on these forums and as the foregoing makes clear, comparisons between the health care (or virtually any other social program) systems of different countries (even though "western," "developed," "English-speaking" etc.) must be taken with a huge dose of salt in that there are huge differences in cultures (such as popular expectations for government services etc.), governments, economies and the like. To try to compare health care (by those on either side of the issue) in isolation of these is futile and misleading.

Additionally, and I believe quite intentionally, such arguments distract from what I believe are the really important comparisons--those that highlight and thoroughly analyze (on the basis of facts not emotions) the specific proposals in the current bill being pushed (HR 3200) and those proposed by others, all in the context of our Constitutional system and demonstrated success using market-based approaches.
 
Bugsy said:
Oil_Slick said:
Interesting fact…

All the Western countries with the 'evil' of 'Socialized Medicine' as the Yanks hysterically call it have longer life expectancies than Americans who allegedly have access to the best healthcare money can buy…

Hmmmm…

Seems that there may be something in this 'Socialized Healthcare' thing.


But, very intriguingly, the two gobment-run health schemes in the US, Meidicare and Medicaid, cost only one third per patient of the treatment expenses of fully funded, private schemes. Given that these two gobment schemes are recognised to be very wasteful, and given that the patients they treat pay no or very minimal premiums, it does beg the question as to how such a situation reflects on the healthcare providers in the US.

In my opinion, the Septic public would be best served by a nationalised health service run on a state-by-state basis, with central financial provisions to redistribute funds to the poorer states and with cross-nation transferability. That would keep the US gobment pretty much out of the picture. This would not only reduced premiums dramatically right across the board, it would also be a factor in ongoing reductions of costs, since the states could negotiate much better prices for medication and keep those prices stable across the nation.

MsG

As a first hand observer (as the primary care giver to my elderly mother and my late father) and soon to be participant in Medicare, I can assure you it is not as efficient as comparable care from private sources and the quality of care (in the sense of what is covered) is definitely not on par with the private system. My experience with military related healthcare is even less encouraging when compared with privately funded care.

I realize those of you who are trying to make sense of this from afar cannot fully appreciate the way these programs actually operate, which is one reason I do not critique the inner workings of the NHS from my septic perspective. It is, however, interesting, but more properly a subject for another thread, that so many posters here are so adamant that we Americans adopt some form of NHS in spite of their lack of such intimate knowledge.

This, I believe, is yet another indicator that this debate over health care is in fact more a debate over much larger issues of philosophy (individual freedoms vs. power of the state etc.), politics (each party seeking to one up the other to increase its relative power vs. acting altruistically for the good of the nation) and economics (e.g., "free" markets vs. centralized government control in the form of socialism, marxism, fascism etc.)
 
jumpinjarhead said:
For example the U.S. has a much higher homicide rate than many countries. The U.S. homicide rate was 5.9 per 100,000 in 2004, compared to 1.64 in France and 0.98 in Germany. The U.S. also has more car wreck fatalities, 14.24 per 100,000 compared with 7.4 in France and 6.19 in Germany.



Stop shooting each other and learn to drive…
 
Oil_Slick said:
Stop shooting each other and learn to drive…

If you ever happen to visit America, let me know and I will take you on a tour of the nearest major city to my farm--Atlanta, that enlightened metropolis that hosted the 1996 Summer Olympics. Please give me a little advance notice however in that I will need to borrow an MRAP and a GPMG from my active duty Marine counterparts.

I do not make it a practice to go there any longer with less protection or firepower if I can help it. I would liken it to Mogadishu except everyone has much nicer and faster cars.
 

Bugsy

LE
jumpinjarhead said:
This, I believe, is yet another indicator that this debate over health care is in fact more a debate over much larger issues of philosophy (individual freedoms vs. power of the state etc.), politics (each party seeking to one up the other to increase its relative power vs. acting altruistically for the good of the nation) and economics (e.g., "free" markets vs. centralized government control in the form of socialism, marxism, fascism etc.)
I believe you're right here, JJ. But you didn't, you didn't, I mean you didn't have to post it so many time to get your point across. :)

I reckon this subject (healthcare reform in the US) would be worth a thread of its own. That would not only give us Europeans an opportunity to air our opinions about the comparative advantages and drawbacks of various countries' individual healthcare systems, but also allow us an insight into the Septic mindset that appears to regard something like this as a direct attack on ALL freedoms and the start of the road to ruin.

MsG
 
jumpinjarhead said:
Oil_Slick said:
Stop shooting each other and learn to drive…

If you ever happen to visit America, let me know and I will take you on a tour of the nearest major city to my farm--Atlanta, that enlightened metropolis that hosted the 1996 Summer Olympics. Please give me a little advance notice however in that I will need to borrow an MRAP and a GPMG from my active duty Marine counterparts.

I do not make it a practice to go there any longer with less protection or firepower if I can help it. I would liken it to Mogadishu except everyone has much nicer and faster cars.


UK - 42 murders with a firearm in a population of 61,000,000…

versus

California - 1,487 murders with a firearm in a population of 37,000,000…


If I go I want kevlar before I get off the plane.
 
commieforna has lots of strict and rather silly gun laws. to prevent mass murder
 
Bugsy said:
I believe you're right here, JJ. But you didn't, you didn't, I mean you didn't have to post it so many time to get your point across. :)

MsG

Very good Bugsy. Have no fear, I usually do not lack the strength of belief in my posts to have to resort to mere repetition to add gravitas. If I were a lesser man I would blame the stupid computer that apparently took over (ala' "Hal" in Stan Kubric's 2001 classic) and repeated the posting but in my usual duty-first style I will fall on my Mameluke sword for that grievous error. I do hope you did not actually read all 3 posts to conclusion before realizing my egregious error--I could not bear the weight of knowing I had robbed you of such a huge part of your remaining time on this mortal coil. :D
 

Bugsy

LE
jumpinjarhead said:
Bugsy said:
I believe you're right here, JJ. But you didn't, you didn't, I mean you didn't have to post it so many time to get your point across. :)

MsG

Very good Bugsy. Have no fear, I usually do not lack the strength of belief in my posts to have to resort to mere repetition to add gravitas. If I were a lesser man I would blame the stupid computer that apparently took over (ala' "Hal" in Stan Kubric's 2001 classic) and repeated the posting but in my usual duty-first style I will fall on my Mameluke sword for that grievous error. I do hope you did not actually read all 3 posts to conclusion before realizing my egregious error--I could not bear the weight of knowing I had robbed you of such a huge part of your remaining time on this mortal coil. :D
Ha, ha. Touché, JJ. Well riposted indeed! Ti saluto, amico mio. :lol:

MsG
 
Oil_Slick said:
jumpinjarhead said:
Oil_Slick said:
Stop shooting each other and learn to drive…

If you ever happen to visit America, let me know and I will take you on a tour of the nearest major city to my farm--Atlanta, that enlightened metropolis that hosted the 1996 Summer Olympics. Please give me a little advance notice however in that I will need to borrow an MRAP and a GPMG from my active duty Marine counterparts.

I do not make it a practice to go there any longer with less protection or firepower if I can help it. I would liken it to Mogadishu except everyone has much nicer and faster cars.


UK - 42 murders with a firearm in a population of 61,000,000…

versus

California - 1,487 murders with a firearm in a population of 37,000,000…


If I go I want kevlar before I get off the plane.

Well that goes without saying--I assumed we would have sufficient personal protective kit. I mean, I never travel without it and am surprised you do, even in the UK, especially given how sexy such gear appears to be to flight attendants--the only problem being which gender they are! :D
 

redleg6

Old-Salt
Oil_Slick said:
I like him and would happily vote for him if we had the choice.

He will be one of Americas greater Presidents and will win a second term.

Mate, you are clueless...what is your source of info? Obama is a one-term president. He makes Jimmy Carter look competent.

you are lost on this one.
 

Tommy

Old-Salt
jumpinjarhead said:
... and yes, ultimately Biblical, as I am one of those cretins who still cling to their guns and Bibles... I am guilty as charged and under your apparent regime should be hustled off to the American Gulag.

:roll: 8O


Again, MiLud, the prosecution rests.


Ah well... time for some satire!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“If Stephen Hawking Lived in England” and Other Great Points the Left Doesn’t Want You to Know...


by Jennifer Epps, Published on Friday, August 21, 2009


Fellow US Patriots,

Here are some important things to keep in mind when those blood-suckers from the left try to spread their lies about health care!! Print this out so you can bring it to a town hall.

1.) If Stephen Hawking lived in England, he'd be left to die. Thank God he's safe at the University of Cambridge in Massachusetts.

2.) If the government was capable of ensuring health care for seniors, they would have done it decades ago.

3.) If we didn't have a free enterprise health care system in America, then we would not be able to achieve all those advances in medicine funded by the National Institutes of Health.

4.) When the people of oppressed countries like Canada, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, Australia and New Zealand finally get democracy, they can vote out their socialized health care systems.

5.) England's capital is the ultimate proof that national health care kills free enterprise. That's why London has no stock exchange, no banking district, no tabloid newspapers, no big musicals, and no expensive real estate.

6.) Even the World Health Organization agrees that "America has the best health care system in the world"; the WHO ranks the American health care system at the very top part of its list, right after the first part where 36 other countries rank higher.

7.) Free enterprise is the greatest system ever invented and government can't even come close. What else but private industry could have split the atom, or gotten a man on the moon?

8.) If you drove 100 miles on the interstate freeway you still couldn't come up with one good thing that government has done.

9.) I'm writing an urgent letter to my Senator about the health-care issue. I'm explaining how the government never does anything right. I'm sure the Post Office will deliver it in a day or so.

10.) The last thing anyone needs is a government official getting involved with health. I look after my own health. For example, I always make sure I eat at restaurants rated "A" in the window.

11.) I really resent the government thinking I need any assistance from them. I buy my FDA-approved medication on my own.

12.) If health care were available to all at government expense, people would over-consume, using it when they don't really need it. As in the common phrase: "It's Saturday night, honey. Would you rather go to a movie, or shall we have our gallstones removed?"

13.) For some reason, the lunatic left can't understand that the most important thing in health care is consumer choice. When you're in a car accident and you've lost pints and pints of blood, what you really want to do is to sit down, think over how much you want to spend and where, and comparison-shop. And if you happen to choose an incompetent surgeon, well, he damn well won't get your business next time, will he?


Jennifer Epps is an L.A.-area political activist, writer, producer, and director who studied theatre and has written several hundred film reviews. She is currently developing an anti-war film.
 

mac1

LE
redleg6 said:
Mate, you are clueless...what is your source of info? Obama is a one-term president. He makes Jimmy Carter look competent.

well on the face of it, it doesn't look good; foreign policy especially seems to be backfiring...
 
Tommy said:
jumpinjarhead said:
... and yes, ultimately Biblical, as I am one of those cretins who still cling to their guns and Bibles... I am guilty as charged and under your apparent regime should be hustled off to the American Gulag.

:roll: 8O


Again, MiLud, the prosecution rests.


Ah well... time for some satire!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“If Stephen Hawking Lived in England” and Other Great Points the Left Doesn’t Want You to Know...


by Jennifer Epps, Published on Friday, August 21, 2009


Fellow US Patriots,

Here are some important things to keep in mind when those blood-suckers from the left try to spread their lies about health care!! Print this out so you can bring it to a town hall.

1.) If Stephen Hawking lived in England, he'd be left to die. Thank God he's safe at the University of Cambridge in Massachusetts.

2.) If the government was capable of ensuring health care for seniors, they would have done it decades ago.

3.) If we didn't have a free enterprise health care system in America, then we would not be able to achieve all those advances in medicine funded by the National Institutes of Health.

4.) When the people of oppressed countries like Canada, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, Australia and New Zealand finally get democracy, they can vote out their socialized health care systems.

5.) England's capital is the ultimate proof that national health care kills free enterprise. That's why London has no stock exchange, no banking district, no tabloid newspapers, no big musicals, and no expensive real estate.

6.) Even the World Health Organization agrees that "America has the best health care system in the world"; the WHO ranks the American health care system at the very top part of its list, right after the first part where 36 other countries rank higher.

7.) Free enterprise is the greatest system ever invented and government can't even come close. What else but private industry could have split the atom, or gotten a man on the moon?

8.) If you drove 100 miles on the interstate freeway you still couldn't come up with one good thing that government has done.

9.) I'm writing an urgent letter to my Senator about the health-care issue. I'm explaining how the government never does anything right. I'm sure the Post Office will deliver it in a day or so.

10.) The last thing anyone needs is a government official getting involved with health. I look after my own health. For example, I always make sure I eat at restaurants rated "A" in the window.

11.) I really resent the government thinking I need any assistance from them. I buy my FDA-approved medication on my own.

12.) If health care were available to all at government expense, people would over-consume, using it when they don't really need it. As in the common phrase: "It's Saturday night, honey. Would you rather go to a movie, or shall we have our gallstones removed?"

13.) For some reason, the lunatic left can't understand that the most important thing in health care is consumer choice. When you're in a car accident and you've lost pints and pints of blood, what you really want to do is to sit down, think over how much you want to spend and where, and comparison-shop. And if you happen to choose an incompetent surgeon, well, he damn well won't get your business next time, will he?


Jennifer Epps is an L.A.-area political activist, writer, producer, and director who studied theatre and has written several hundred film reviews. She is currently developing an anti-war film.

Your choice of satire is informative about the poster but as I said before and just remembered (forgive me I am almost elderly) we are done here.
 
redleg6 said:
Oil_Slick said:
I like him and would happily vote for him if we had the choice.

He will be one of Americas greater Presidents and will win a second term.

Mate, you are clueless...what is your source of info? Obama is a one-term president. He makes Jimmy Carter look competent.

you are lost on this one.


I can predict with a high probabilty that it won't be a Republical being sworn in next time.

Get used to it… Obama! Obama! Four More Years! :D
 
Oil_Slick said:
redleg6 said:
Oil_Slick said:
I like him and would happily vote for him if we had the choice.

He will be one of Americas greater Presidents and will win a second term.

Mate, you are clueless...what is your source of info? Obama is a one-term president. He makes Jimmy Carter look competent.

you are lost on this one.


I can predict with a high probabilty that it won't be a Republical being sworn in next time.

Get used to it… Obama! Obama! Four More Years! :D

Perhaps. If you are a Briton I don't know if I would be gleeful about the prospect however.
 

redleg6

Old-Salt
Oil_Slick said:
Interesting fact…

All the Western countries with the 'evil' of 'Socialized Medicine' as the Yanks hysterically call it have longer life expectancies than Americans who allegedly have access to the best healthcare money can buy…


Hmmmm…


Seems that there may be something in this 'Socialized Healthcare' thing.

Mate...you are either brain-washed, or brain-dead.

The lower US life expectancies are due to the poor health of the illegal immigrants, those with AIDS and other life-style dieseases, and the under-class who find drugs, alcohol and other life-shortening activities the norm.

Reading your different posts on this thread convinces me you are clueless.
 

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