Dodgy Dossier must go public: Info Commissioners New Ruling

#1
Do I hear the first early sign of pigeons coming home to roost?

Iraq dossier memos 'must be released'
Memos and emails showing how the Government's Iraq war dossier was "sexed up" must be released, the information commissioner has ordered.
By Jon Swaine
Last Updated: 9:40AM BST 04 Sep 2008

Richard Thomas has told civil servants to hand over previously undisclosed statements by political figures, such as Downing Street press officers.

Comments about drafts of the dossier which were made between 11 and 16 September 2002 are clearly in the public interest, Mr Thomas said.

The move comes after repeated requests made under the freedom of information act by Chris Ames, an investigative journalist. His requests had previously been turned down on the grounds of the protection of national security.

In his new ruling, Mr Thomas said the release of "comments arising from bodies other than the Defence Intelligence Staff" could not be considered a security risk.

Confirming the existence of new material, Mr Thomas said: "Having considered the information which was withheld by the Cabinet Office, the commissioner is not satisfied that all of the comments on the draft dossier constituted information which engages the section 24 exemption [which relates to national security]".

IN FULL: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...9460/Iraq-dossier-memos-must-be-released.html
 
#2
Excuse my ignorance in this but does the Information Commissioner have the authority to order these documents released by the Government or will they just bring in some new legislation sharpish in order to ensure the information stays 'classified'?

(If so, just check laptops left on trains by various civil servants, one of them will undoubtably have the info on it! :D )
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
I do hope this gets out - it will exhonerate David Kelly (posthumously, the b@stards!), make the whole Bliar fiasco the lie it always was, hopefully some charges can be brought against UK politicians for an illegal war and for malfeasance in public office, and most importantly, it will drive another nail in the coffin of ZANU NL.
 
#4
I thought it wasn't Sexed up.... Lord "whitewash" Hutton said so didn't he?
 
#5
Biped said:
I do hope this gets out - it will exhonerate David Kelly (posthumously, the b@stards!), make the whole Bliar fiasco the lie it always was, hopefully some charges can be brought against UK politicians for an illegal war and for malfeasance in public office, and most importantly, it will drive another nail in the coffin of ZANU NL.
More importantly it may dispense with the pack of lies (sorry the inquiry) about David Kelly's death.
Nobody believes he topped himself, I would certainly like to know who was responsible and see justice done.
 
#7
vvaannmmaann said:
Won't anything that is released be subject to heavy censorship,to protect the guilty?
Depends on wether Gordon has managed to get rid of the Treason Act as planned before anything incriminating comes out.
But in short yes, you can be sure they will cover their own backsides and Dr Kelly will still have topped himself, with no outside interference at all.
 
#8
Fcuk the dossier. It's for cnuts anyway.

Eyeball this instead:

Prehistoric and Classical period
Roman conquest of Britain
Boudica's uprising
Battle of Watling Street

Mediæval period
Battle of Aylesford (455) Anglo-Saxons, Romano-Britons
Battle of Ellandun
Viking invasions (793–1066)
Raid on Lindisfarne (793)
Campaign of Alfred the Great (871–899)
Battle of Edington (878)
Battle of Cannington (878)
Battle of Ashingdon (1016)
Battle of Fulford (1066)
Battle of Stamford Bridge (1066)
Norman Conquest of England (1066)
The Battle of Hastings 1066
Rebellion of 1088 - civil war
The Anarchy (1135–1154) - civil war
Battle of Renfrew (1164)
Revolt of 1173-1174 - civil war
Third Crusade (1189-1192)
Richard I's war in France
Welsh uprising of 1211
Battle of Bouvines (1214) - loss of Normandy
First Barons' War (1215–1217) - civil war
Henry III's war in France
Battle of Largs
Second Barons' War (1264–1267) - civil war
Welsh Uprising (1282) - civil war
Edward I's war in France
The First War of Scottish Independence (1296–1328)
Battle of Bannockburn (1314)
Edward II's war in France
The Second War of Scottish Independence (1332–1357)
Hundred Years' War (1337 to 1453) against France
War of Edward III (1337 to 1360) - victory
War of Charles the Wise (1369 to 1396) - defeat
War of Henry V (1415 to 1422) - victory
War of Charles the Victorious (1428 to 1453) - defeat
Wars of the Roses (1455–1485) - Richard III was the last English king to die in combat - civil war

Early Modern period
Italian Wars (1494 – 1559)
War of the League of Cambrai (1511-1513)
Italian War of 1521 (1521-1525)
Italian War of 1542 (1542-1546)
Italian War of 1551 (1557-1559)
Cornish Rebellion (1497)
Revolt of Silken Thomas (1534)
Anglo-Scottish Wars (1513; 1544-1551)
Third Cornish Uprising (1549)
Loss of Calais (1558) - then England's last continental possession
Desmond Wars (1569-1583)
Anglo-Spanish War (1585-1604)
Nine Years War (1594–1603)
Eighty Years' War (1568–1648)
First Anglo-Powhatan War (1609–1613) - North America
Second Anglo-Powhatan War (1622) - North America
Anglo-Spanish War (1625-1630) (As a small part of the Thirty Years' War)
Anglo-French War (1626-1629)
Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1651) - civil war
First Bishops' War (1639)
Second Bishops' War (1640)
Irish Rebellion (1641)
The Confederate’s War (1642-1648)
English Civil War (1642–1651)
First English Civil War (1642–1646)
civil war in Scotland (1644–1647)
Second English Civil War (1648)
Cromwellian conquest of Ireland (1649-1653)
Third English Civil War (1650–1651)
Third Anglo-Powhatan War (1644) - North America
First Anglo-Dutch War (1652–1654)
Anglo-Spanish War (1654–1660)
Second Anglo-Dutch War (1665–1667)
War of Devolution (1667–1668)
Third Anglo-Dutch War (1672–1674)
King Philip's War (1675–1676) - North America
Virginia Rebellion (1676)
Monmouth Rebellion (1685) - civil war
Nine Years War (1688–1697) - England, Spain, Germany, Portugal and Holland v France
King William's War (1688–1697) - North America
Jacobite Rebellions (1689-91; 1715-16; 1719; 1745-46) - Civil War
Williamite war in Ireland (1688–1691)
Battle of the Boyne (1690) - last battle between two rival claimants for the throne
Clifton Moor Skirmish, near Penrith (1745) - last battle on English soil
Battle of Culloden (1746) - last battle in Great Britain
War of the Spanish Succession (1702–1713) - England and Scotland/Great Britain, Germany, Portugal and Holland v France and Spain
Queen Anne's War (1702–1713)
War of the Quadruple Alliance (1718–1720) - Great Britain, France, Austria and Holland v Italy and Spain
War of Jenkins' Ear (1739–1742) - Great Britain v Spain
War of the Austrian Succession (1742–1748) - Great Britain, Austria and Holland v France and Germany
King George's War (1744–1748)
Seven Years' War (1756–1763) - the first "world war"
French and Indian War (1754–1763) - Great Britain and Germany v Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, Spain and Portugal
Anglo-Cherokee War (1759–1763) - North America
Pontiac's Rebellion (1763–1766) - North America
First Anglo-Mysore War (1766–1769) - India
American War of Independence (1775–1783) - North America, civil war
First Anglo-Maratha War (1775–1782) - India
Fourth Anglo-Dutch War (1780–1784)
Second Anglo-Mysore War (1780–1784) - India
Third Anglo-Mysore War (1789–1792) - India

19th Century
French Revolutionary Wars (1793–1802) - Great Britain, Austria, Spain, Russia, Germany v France
War of the First Coalition (1793–1797)
War of the Second Coalition (1798–1801)
Fourth Anglo-Mysore War (1798–1799) - India
Irish Rebellion (1798)
Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815) - United Kingdom, Prussia, Austria, Sweden, Spain and Russia v France
British invasions of the Río de la Plata (1806–1807)
Anglo-Turkish War (1807–1809)
Anglo-Russian War (1807–1812)
Gunboat War (1807–1814)
Peninsular War (1808–1814)
Hundred Days (1815)
First Kandian War (1803–1804) - India
Second Anglo-Maratha War (1803–1805) - India
Vellore Mutiny (1806) - India
Anglo-Dutch Java War (1810–1811)
War of 1812 (1812–1815)
Anglo-Nepalese War (1814–1816)
Second Kandian War (1815) - Sri Lanka
Third Anglo-Maratha War (1817–1818) - India
First Anglo-Burmese War (1823–1826)
Upper Canada Rebellion (1837)
Lower Canada Rebellion (1837)
First Anglo-Afghan War (1839–1842)
Battle of Ghazni
First Opium War (1839–1842) - United Kingdom v China
First Anglo-Sikh War (1845–1846) - India
New Zealand Wars (1845–1872)
Second Anglo-Sikh War (1848–1849) - India
Second Anglo-Burmese War (1852)
Crimean War (1854–1856) - United Kingdom, France, Turkey, and Piedmont-Sardinia v Russia
Second Opium War (1856–1860) - United Kingdom and France v China
Anglo-Persian War (1856–1857) - United Kingdom and Persia
Indian Rebellion (1857)
Pig War (1859) - United Kingdom v USA
Anglo-Bhutanese War (1865)
Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-1880)
Anglo-Zulu War (1879)
First Boer War (1880–1881)
Gun War (1880–1881)
Mahdist War (1881–1899)
Third Anglo-Burmese War (1885–1887)
Anglo-Zanzibar War (1896)
Second Boer War (1899–1902)

20th Century
Boxer Rebellion (1900) - United Kingdom, Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, USA, and China
Anglo-Aro war (1901-1902) - Nigeria
World War I (1914–1918) - United Kingdom, France, Belgium, Serbia, Italy, Russia, United States, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria and Turkey
Easter Rising (1916) - Ireland
Russian Civil War (1918–1922)
Third Anglo-Afghan War (1919)
Anglo-Irish War (1919–1921)
World War II (1939–1945)
The Pacific War (1937–1945) United Kingdom, USA and China v Japan
Anglo-Iraqi War (1941)
Greek Civil War (1941–1949)
Malayan Emergency (1948–1960)
Korean War (1950–1953)
Mau Mau Uprising (1952–1960)
Cyprus Emergency (1955–1959)
Suez Crisis (1956)
Brunei Revolt (1962)
Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation (1962–1966)
Aden Emergency (1963–1967)
Northern Ireland Troubles (1969-1998)
Cod War Confrontation (1975–1976)
Falklands War (1982)
The First Gulf War (1990–1991)
The Bosnian War (1995–1996)
The Kosovo War (1999)
Sierra Leone Civil War (2000)

21st century
The Global War on Terror (2001)
The Afghanistan War (2001–Present)
Iraq War and Iraqi insurgency (2003–Present) - Dossier Required

List of Civil Wars
Rebellion of 1088 - in England and Normandy
The Anarchy (1135–1154) - in England
Revolt of 1173-1174 - in England, Normandy, and Anjou
First Barons' War (1215–1217) - in England
Second Barons' War (1264–1267) - in England
Welsh Uprising (1282) - in England and Wales
Wars of the Roses (1455–1485) - in England and Wales; Richard III was the last English king to die in combat
Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1651) - in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland
First Bishops' War (1639)
Second Bishops' War (1640)
Irish Rebellion (1641)
First English Civil War (1642–1646)
The Confederate’s War (1642-1648)
Scotland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1644–1647)
Second English Civil War (1648)
Third English Civil War (1650–1651)
Cromwellian conquest of Ireland (1649)
Monmouth Rebellion (1685) - in England
Jacobite Rebellions (1689-91; 1715-16; 1719; 1745-46) - in England, Scotland and Ireland
Williamite war in Ireland (1688–1691)
Battle of the Boyne (1690) - last battle between two rival claimants for the throne
Clifton Moor, near Penrith (1745) - last land battle on English soil
Battle of Culloden (1746) - last land battle in Great Britain
American Revolutionary War (1775–1783) - Effectively Civil War with Loyalists fighting Revolutionaries



Dossier?? A trick of cnuts.
 
#9
In-Limbo

I understand your argument to be along the lines "Precedent: we started the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 without just cause - so that's OK then - we can go on doing the same thing whenever we like". :roll:
 
#10
Biped said:
I do hope this gets out - it will exhonerate David Kelly (posthumously, the b@stards!), make the whole Bliar fiasco the lie it always was, hopefully some charges can be brought against UK politicians for an illegal war and for malfeasance in public office, and most importantly, it will drive another nail in the coffin of ZANU NL.
So you're read already it then? :roll:
 
#11
Stonker said:
In-Limbo

I understand your argument to be along the lines "Precedent: we started the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 without just cause - so that's OK then - we can go on doing the same thing whenever we like". :roll:
Or "UN vote and Parliamentary/popular approval uniquely 'required' in one of a 100 wars - so who gives a stuff in future? Just get stuck in"

"The Falklands War" should read "The Falklands Conflict".

"The Cod War Confrontation"???
 
#12
AlMiles said:
Stonker said:
In-Limbo

I understand your argument to be along the lines "Precedent: we started the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 without just cause - so that's OK then - we can go on doing the same thing whenever we like". :roll:
Or "UN vote and Parliamentary/popular approval uniquely 'required' in one of a 100 wars - so who gives a stuff in future? Just get stuck in"

"The Falklands War" should read "The Falklands Conflict".

"The Cod War Confrontation"???
The significant difference being that this dossier apears to have been put together with scant regard for clear evidence, in the certain knowledge that - were that simple unvarnished evidence honestly set before Parliament and people - they would not support the action Cabinet were recommending.

Robin Cook saw it for what it was - and did the right thing.

It is one thing to engage in an action to reclaim territories lost to a fascist (Argentina was exactly that, at the time) invader, even though UK gunmint misjudgment encouraged the invasion. It is another altogether to embark one's own forces on an invasion (followed by an incompetently planned, and under-resourced occupation), on the back of deliberate lies.

B'liar wanted to be remembered for "Education, education, education".

Instead he'll be forever branded with 3 quite different words: Deceitful, Incompetent and niggardly.
 
#13
Stonker said:
In-Limbo

I understand your argument to be along the lines "Precedent: we started the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 without just cause - so that's OK then - we can go on doing the same thing whenever we like". :roll:
Works for me :D

Bloody Zulus!!
 
#14
In-Limbo said:
Stonker said:
In-Limbo

I understand your argument to be along the lines "Precedent: we started the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 without just cause - so that's OK then - we can go on doing the same thing whenever we like". :roll:
Works for me :D
But you get upset when the Russians apply the same logic. Is it a case of having one rule for us and a different one for them?
 
#15
Stonker said:
Do I hear the first early sign of pigeons coming home to roost?

Iraq dossier memos 'must be released'
Memos and emails showing how the Government's Iraq war dossier was "sexed up" must be released, the information commissioner has ordered.
By Jon Swaine
Last Updated: 9:40AM BST 04 Sep 2008

Richard Thomas has told civil servants to hand over previously undisclosed statements by political figures, such as Downing Street press officers.

Comments about drafts of the dossier which were made between 11 and 16 September 2002 are clearly in the public interest, Mr Thomas said.

The move comes after repeated requests made under the freedom of information act by Chris Ames, an investigative journalist. His requests had previously been turned down on the grounds of the protection of national security.

In his new ruling, Mr Thomas said the release of "comments arising from bodies other than the Defence Intelligence Staff" could not be considered a security risk.

Confirming the existence of new material, Mr Thomas said: "Having considered the information which was withheld by the Cabinet Office, the commissioner is not satisfied that all of the comments on the draft dossier constituted information which engages the section 24 exemption [which relates to national security]".

IN FULL: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...9460/Iraq-dossier-memos-must-be-released.html
But what if the memos don't show what you want to see?
 
#16
whitecity said:
In-Limbo said:
Stonker said:
In-Limbo

I understand your argument to be along the lines "Precedent: we started the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 without just cause - so that's OK then - we can go on doing the same thing whenever we like". :roll:
Works for me :D
But you get upset when the Russians apply the same logic. Is it a case of having one rule for us and a different one for them?
What part of "Dossier, trick of cnuts" don't you get? 8O

And I don't recall getting particularly upset at Russian logic or lack there of, with regards to establishing there precedence or lack thereof. In fact the thrust of my arguement on that issue was pretty much drawn from, "hands up who didn't see it comming from a mile off?".

Fate, facts, morality, & ethics behind Just Causes for War are commonly established long after the decisions to act. Fait accompli.
 
#17
Didn't Nuremberg establish "Topping" for those who start Wars of Aggression ?
john
Means ta say, Poor Old Sodom was no threat to his external neighbors post First Gulf War.
 
#18
jonwilly said:
Didn't Nuremberg establish "Topping" for those who start Wars of Aggression ?
john
Means ta say, Poor Old Sodom was no threat to his external neighbors post First Gulf War.
A war of aggression is a military conflict waged for the clear purposes of territorial aggrandizement and conquest. Waging such a war of aggression is a crime under the customary international law. It is generally agreed by scholars in international law that the military actions of the Nazi regime in World War II in its search for so-called "Lebensraum" are characteristic of a war of aggression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression
Other examples could be Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, Japan's invasion of China, and Indonesia's invasion of East Timor. Given that that the invasion of Iraq didn't involve it being forcibly incorporated into another state, subdugated into an empire, or systematically looted, it can't be seen as a war of aggression.
 
#20
parapauk said:
Stonker said:
Do I hear the first early sign of pigeons coming home to roost?

Iraq dossier memos 'must be released'
Memos and emails showing how the Government's Iraq war dossier was "sexed up" must be released, the information commissioner has ordered.
By Jon Swaine
Last Updated: 9:40AM BST 04 Sep 2008

Richard Thomas has told civil servants to hand over previously undisclosed statements by political figures, such as Downing Street press officers.

Comments about drafts of the dossier which were made between 11 and 16 September 2002 are clearly in the public interest, Mr Thomas said.

The move comes after repeated requests made under the freedom of information act by Chris Ames, an investigative journalist. His requests had previously been turned down on the grounds of the protection of national security.

In his new ruling, Mr Thomas said the release of "comments arising from bodies other than the Defence Intelligence Staff" could not be considered a security risk.

Confirming the existence of new material, Mr Thomas said: "Having considered the information which was withheld by the Cabinet Office, the commissioner is not satisfied that all of the comments on the draft dossier constituted information which engages the section 24 exemption [which relates to national security]".

IN FULL: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...9460/Iraq-dossier-memos-must-be-released.html
But what if the memos don't show what you want to see?
Good point. Despite (because of???) FOI, there is still a tendency to over-classify material, and it may be that the retained documents may say little more than 'Don't like the font' or 'The author seems unable to spell...'.

However, some Sir Humprhey descendant may have concluded that since documents of this type have been handled on the basis that one should assume that the spelling ability of a junior underling in the Cabinet Office must be regarded as a state secret since the Northcote-Trevelyan reforms of the civil service in 1853, the service should as a result of its SOPs, refuse to release the material since it never has done before, and to do so now would be the thin end of the wedge/end of civilisation as we know it/other Yes, Minister civil service cliche of your choice...

In which case, much fanfare of 'That * Blair's for it now' from the press only for a loud sigh of disappointment to follow as the papers prove banal.

I suspect that these documents may have a bit more substance to them than that, but the implication that the contents are earth-shattering and will lead to the incarceration of the previous PM may be somewhat misplaced, and may lead to people being disappointed (and concluding that some cover-up has taken place).

Edit because of pressing 'submit' too early :oops:
 

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