Do we need to specify Right from Wrong?

Discussion in 'The NAAFI Bar' started by Outstanding, Jun 11, 2006.

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  1. Many new guys, who make mistakes (didn't we all?) say things like "well no-one told me, trained me or briefed me". Now when there are tchnical issues involved I think that cvan be a fair defence, but do we need to tell recruits the difference between more basic (in my view) elements of day to day life?

    For instance,
    a. breaking stuff that isn't yours - is wrong.
    b. being late in or still being pissed the morning after - is wrong.
    c. taking anything that isn't yours and using it as your own with no intention of ever returning it - is wrong.

    yet all these have recently been questioned with such inane comments as - no-one told me, i thought he wouldn't mind, I didn't mean to break it!

    This indicates that there is a need to teach young soldiers some Values and Standards.

    Or am I just a grumpy old man after 30 years and still serving?
     
  2. Whats up has some pissed up cnut kicked your door down and back scuttled your missus again?


    Lance Jack? Its time you got measured for your demob suit, Japans fallen.....
     
  3. No problem, after MATT6, they've got no defence.
     
  4. I thought that the true determinant of that which was right or wrong was found in the wording of AF B252.

    Breaking stuff that is not yours is Criminal Damage. Being late in morning was, I thought, disobedience to standing orders if being required to attend for a Muster Parade had been the subject of a Part 1Order, Being still drunk was and I believe, still is, a specific charge under the Army Act, while taking someone else's property, using it as your own with no intention of returning it was, I seem to remember, Committing a Civil Offence Contrary to Section 70 of the Army Act 1955, that is to say Theft contrary to Section 1(1) Theft Act 1968.

    In addition, Criminal Damage, and Theft allow the victim a specific civil remedy in tortious damages against the perpretator.

    I remember a young soldier getting into trouble at home while on leave, stealing money from his family, as a result of which I received a phone call in my office from his irate mother. She admonished the Army in general and me in particular for failing to 'make a man of him', failing to inculcate some respect for himself or others, and so on in a tirade that was most irritating to have to listen to.

    My response at the end of it was simple:

    "Madam, do not expect me to achieve in one year that you have manifestly failed to achieve in eighteen of them!

    The conversation ended somwhat ubruptly.
     

  5. A Only if you get caught putting it back so it looks ok then asking you mate to touch it so he thinks he did it is a key skill

    B You must have been the dullest young Tom in NATO coming pissed and still been able to do you job or at least stand up straight or spending all morning in the back of a Spartan with the NBC locks on sleeping it off it’s a right of passage.


    C Bollocks the redistribution of supplies all to the good just as long as it’s not personal kit then if you get caught you get branded with an iron



    If you missed these key lessons no wonder you only made Lance Jack
     
  6. That I like! Good comeback and very, very true. Why do (some) parents seem to think that it is the job of the school system/Army/anyone else but them to educate their offspring in the rights and wrongs?
     
  7. Sure they do, they can cheat at MATT 6 by memorising the answers found on the pdf file, then they can sleep through the lesson and not learn a thing yet still pass :wink:
     
  8. Outstanding, I think you are just having a grumpy moment. It was no different when I went through training and I bet if you look back into your dim and distant past there were characters who acted in a similar fashion.
     

  9. Accepting that generalities are poor I submit the following.

    Unforunately we now spend time at Trg establishments dealing with todays recruits whose understanding of discipline is nil. The often heard response to a direct order being "that's so unfair" or "why do I have to do it?". Some of this stuff you couldn't write in a comedy programme!

    On another level we have all too common, and it seems increasing, examples of individuals making extremely poor personal choices and doing something that is fundamentally "wrong" when they know they shgouldn't. This ranges from marital affairs, to misuse of transport, stealing goverment equipment (low level but!), submitting false claims - the list goes on.

    So my point is not just a whinge, but more of an observation on Regular Army life today.
     
  10. I may be playing Devil's Advocate here, so go easy on me.

    What is the public perception of the typical British soldier? If it's that the Army is a fine, upstanding institution, then you'd expect applicants to get their act in order before joining, or that the Army will turn a dodgy character into a model citizen.

    If, however, the perception is that the Army is a bunch of rogues, then the first task during recruit training is to get rid of this perception.

    How many films or TV series DO NOT portray the British Soldier as a sneaky, thieving scumbag (albeit with some, slightly off-beat, sense of loyalty, courage and honour)? The US military is portrayed with it's "Honor Code," but the British soldier regularly nicks stuff to benefit himself and more importantly, his mates.

    In the real Army, thievery goes on, but there are unwritten rules that mitigate the crime and overstepping those bounds can be painful. Also, unlike the fictional Army, the practice is rarely condoned by the Chain of Command. Being caught formally has a completely different set of punishments that can hamper you for your entire career.

    Greengrass listed an alternative set of rules and it would be fair to say that a lot of soldiers adhere to these general principles. But it's also the case that progression within the Army rarely develops until the soldier matures and puts such juvenile antics behind him. While the formal view is that Greengrasses rules have no place in the modern Army, think how boring the Army would be without the memories of illicit escapades.
     
  11. I dont mind the service being exciting FFS it is what we joined for, I just get thoroughly wee'd off with the number of stupid acts committed apparently because individuals have lost their Values and Standards.
     
  12. Of course we do, how the hell are chavs supposed to get their jollies if the don't know its wrong to be chavs if nothing else!