Do Troops going through TSC(A)/TSC(INf) get enough support from their parent unit?

DO troops going through TSC(A)/TSC(Inf) get enough support from their parent unit?


  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .
#1
Do Troops going through TSC(A)/TSC(INf) get enough support from their parent unit?

I work with the RTC in Aldershot, and I am getting a lot of feedback from the lads that they dont get the support from the parent unit, in the sense of revision and supporting training for the course. Just wondered what the opinion of the forum is?

Many thanks

Hippy.
 
#2
Do Troops going through TSC(A)/TSC(INf) get enough support from their parent unit?

I work with the RTC in Aldershot, and I am getting a lot of feedback from the lads that they dont get the support from the parent unit, in the sense of revision and supporting training for the course. Just wondered what the opinion of the forum is?

Many thanks

Hippy.
Shirly it is dependent on the number of available qualified instructors in the parent unit.

A small unit with a cadre of NCOs devoid of instructional quals means no support.

What does your RTC do to support these types of unit?
 
#3
Not enough at the moment, but if I can come up with a business case, we might be able to do more than just the basics. Hence the survey. Also doing a survey through other means to and will collate the information before presenting to the chain of command.
 
#4
Looking after recruits is demanding as you miss your own training. Plus SAA, CBRN, MAPRIC and PTI courses are all big courses. BCDI is 2 week ends so not so bad.

Now, assistant CBRN is 2 week ends, and can teach. Much of the work at RTC is SAA. So, how about doing a SAA assistant to train recruits up to WHT standard? It used to be glued on the Cmcq course. Two w ends and you've got a gem of a qual.

Just a thought.
 
#6
From i understand lads arnt aloud any form of training/teaching from thier parent unit. This comes from RTC saying we teach recruits incorrectly.....
 
#7
Do Troops going through TSC(A)/TSC(INf) get enough support from their parent unit?

I work with the RTC in Aldershot, and I am getting a lot of feedback from the lads that they dont get the support from the parent unit, in the sense of revision and supporting training for the course. Just wondered what the opinion of the forum is?

Many thanks

Hippy.
Dogfondler jr. has recently completed TSC (A) and had no help whatsoever from his unit with regard to TSC (B). Indeed, at RTC the prevailing ethos was, "Don't worry, you'll do that at Pirbright/Grantham/wherever."
 
#8
That is an issue, some units just say we cant teach them, others say you'll do it later in training. Then other units, use the same instructors that visit the RTCs to train and provide additioanl training to the recruits at different stages. SO we see a real mixture depending on the level of support provided. Hence the question.
 

walkyrie

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
#9
We're told that we are not to teach Recruits, aside from a vetted billy basics syllabus (think badges of rank and ironing).

My limited (OR) knowledge is that its the RTC's that have fed back that we shouldn't be training recruits. So our stock response has to be "you'll learn it on TSC(A)/(B)."

Equally, the teaching style and syllabus seems to change so often that all the trained soldiers in our unit are out of date, so if we do teach them it only confuses the matter.

Is it possible for the RTCs to issue a formal "what to do with recruits and how to do it" ? Or do they already do that and CoC has neglected to mention it?
 
#10
Simple answer is the following.

Units can not teach beyond the recruit syllabus, this prior to TSC(A) is the very basics.

During TSC(A) they are to provide any remedial training highlighted by the SUTs / Recruits book filled in by the RTC.

TSC (Inf) again is another night mare, think 4/5 weekends of training squashed into 3 and you'll get the idea

In reality very little is done as varying levels of Recruits are in on a Tuesday, anyone providing training should be CRB'd, DTTT and obviously qual'd.

There are many issues, by all means I can offer advise from the coal face if you wish, unfortunately the training model is flawed and not suitable for the TA, but everyone involved knows this
 

walkyrie

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
#11
During TSC(A) they are to provide any remedial training highlighted by the SUTs / Recruits book filled in by the RTC.
I hate to start the whinge train, but this just does not work. Prime example happened not so long ago.

Recruit walks in on a Tuesday after a weekend:
"My RTC book says I need to do more weapon handling before the next weekend."
But the Skilly isn't in. Ok, we'll do a bit of buckshee weapon-cleaning-with-extras.
Oh wait. The SQMS isn't in so we can't open the armoury anyway....



Anyway, you've summed it up perfectly here so I'll get back in my box....
There are many issues, by all means I can offer advise from the coal face if you wish, unfortunately the training model is flawed and not suitable for the TA, but everyone involved knows this
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#12
"My RTC book says I need to do more weapon handling before the next weekend."
But the Skilly isn't in. Ok, we'll do a bit of buckshee weapon-cleaning-with-extras.
Oh wait. The SQMS isn't in so we can't open the armoury anyway....
The Skilly? Really? At my platoon location alone there are four of us, so even with one on tour, there is always someone who can instruct SAA lessons/practices. There must be more than one SAAI at your unit, surely? I do realise that non-Infantry units have issues in this regard, but there is always a PSI if no one else. I think this goes to the heart of much of the problem. Recruits return for their next weekend never having practiced what they were taught on the Rifle and need constant revision on previously taught drills. We don't even hold weapons at our location, but will have previously arranged to have some transported down for at least one of the nights in between Training Weekends.

Having guest instructed there, I know how much time is spent on remedial sessions with struggling students who clearly have not touched a weapon since their last Trg Wknd, when in fact they are the kind of people who need more practice than most. Weapon handling and physical fitness are the two areas where a lack of practice between the weekends seems most evident. Phys is of course something which the recruits can (and should) be doing in their own time, with PT sessions at unit really just confirming that they are up to the standard that they have been trained to at RTC. SAA however, does require resource support which means that leaving it to an last minute lesson rather than having it scheduled as an integral part of your unit recruit training package, is probably where it's falling down.

I think a more pertinent question involving RTC than the one posed by the OP, is whether RTC is training recruits to the right level to start CIC. I pose this in the light of the shockingly low percentage of recruits who got a straight pass in a recent CIC cadre. Speaking to two of the lads who did pass it, they both felt that they had been physically unprepared for the level of robustness required there. The 8 mile tab at the end of the four-day Ex seems to have been the biggest drama. Both Rfn said that there was marked gap in the fitness level at the end of RTC and that at CIC. The easy answer here would be to bridge that gap by training at unit, but this would mean training beyond what they have been taught at RTC. Moreover, is this not RTC's job to train them up to the correct level?
 
#13
Fitness is personally a big one, the amount of guys that I recycle through our system because they can't even pass a 4mile loaded march is shocking on average the fail rate is around 30% per weekend during TAC(Inf) who are supposed to have passed a 3mile one as a pass out of TSC(A).

Ranges, not enough time, based on AOSP we need a minimum of 2 weekends to complete all the required range practices.

And NBC really, surely this can be a phase 3 or done at unit level and allow more time for other things.

Don't even mention that Corps get extra training time in their syllabus compared to Inf
 
#14
The problem is the lack of instructors at unit level.

Who says the PSI has instructor quals? I've not had a SAA PSI at this Sqn (2002).

I remember the bad old days of in house training week ends. Standards were much lower before the RTCs. I think the model works.

As I have said, the bulk of the time is spent on SAA. A short course (2 w ends) to enable instruction to recruits up to WHT SA80 would take much of the pressure off the SAAIs.

The 'Endurance Leader' course (correct me if I'm wrong) is a 2 w end take a PFT job. That's what we need for all MATTs, (basic footdrill even???), SAA too, a large cadre of assistants who can conduct up to date low level instruction at sub unit level on training nights.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
The problem is the lack of instructors at unit level.

Who says the PSI has instructor quals? I've not had a SAA PSI at this Sqn (2002).
Really? What capbadge are you out of interest? I know that non-Infantry don't do this as a matter of course as part of their Cpl promotion, but thought this was a requisite course for an Instructor posting. Still, if this is the situation then surely it is incumbent on your sub-unit to prioritise getting its NCOs on a SAA course.

I remember the bad old days of in house training week ends. Standards were much lower before the RTCs. I think the model works.
Yes I agree, standards have been raised and made uniform and consistent. A big step forward, but as I said in my post above, I think the training level still falls short of adequately preparing recruits for CIC.

As I have said, the bulk of the time is spent on SAA. A short course (2 w ends) to enable instruction to recruits up to WHT SA80 would take much of the pressure off the SAAIs.
Being able to instruct up to WHT is what the SAA course does (plus coaching etc.). How about actually sending a one or two guys on the actual course every year, instead of instituting a whole new course and qualification?

The 'Endurance Leader' course (correct me if I'm wrong) is a 2 w end take a PFT job. That's what we need for all MATTs, (basic footdrill even???), SAA too, a large cadre of assistants who can conduct up to date low level instruction at sub unit level on training nights.
The ETL qual enables you to take a squadded run or tab on a route that has been risk-assessed by a PTI. You can't sign off PFTs or CFTs. Instead of a large cadre of SAA assistants, how about a core of actual instructors?
 
#16
OK, I have done CMCQ, SAA and ETL and a few points

1. CMCQ no longer quals you to run WHT or any form of training that's the SAAI job
2. There are now 3 courses ran per year (Jun, Nov and Mar) as it is now a combined Reg and TA course, every course has 40 TA places. That means there are 120 slots a year available to get guys qualified. I am in a non Inf unit and we have 3 skillys (with another 2 on the sidelines waiting a slot) not including the PSI, I am not sure if its a pre-requisite for role but so far all the PSIs I know have held the qual.
3. ETL can only take TRAINED troops out for a run during daylight in the absence of a PTI, so a bit pointless for TA Recruits. We counter the issue by having 3 PTIs (we did have 5 at one stage, but 2 left)

I also teach as a VI at a RTC and can confirm that when you have your 8-12 students in a line the SAA ability differs wildly, it is often driven by capbadge, the surprise being its not always the Corps troops lacking, there are certain inf guys you have to ask which Coy they belong to as it is that apparent who is going to be any good and who isn't

The challenge whoever isn't getting on the course, its often breaking the mindset that LCpl wotsit will not be on ATP this year as they are on a course, some only seem to give courses to those who can't make camp rather that than scheduling in one as a career step, the drama of course is if they are not successful you risk them not qualifying for bounty.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
The challenge whoever isn't getting on the course, its often breaking the mindset that LCpl wotsit will not be on ATP this year as they are on a course, some only seem to give courses to those who can't make camp rather that than scheduling in one as a career step, the drama of course is if they are not successful you risk them not qualifying for bounty.
Our unit has been pretty good about allowing guys whose course bids have been unsuccessful and who can't get aon another course, to work at unit for their camp. It wasn't their fault and as they were prepared to do a course to benefit the unit, it's only right that the unit should provide a safety net.

Reference the SAA ability variance; people always expect the Infantry recruits to be better, but there shouldn't be any difference at that stage as they have all received the same instruction and can all receive the same revision/practice at their parent units.
 
#18
Reference the SAA ability variance; people always expect the Infantry recruits to be better, but there shouldn't be any difference at that stage as they have all received the same instruction and can all receive the same revision/practice at their parent units.
We also find that "Habits" from the more senior (age) SAA instructors at RTC tend to be quite interesting, both Inf and Corps Capbadge.
 
#19
Instead of a large cadre of SAA assistants, how about a core of actual instructors?
I am RAMC.

I acknowledge your points and I agree with you. The point is that our blokes often need to do camp in order keep up to date with med training. Also they have been either on CMT courses (2 weeks a go), junior & senior courses (2 weeks a go) and active med covers that can last from weeks to months.

Clearly more SAAIs is the answer. There is, however, a lot of ground that a jnco (RAMCv) needs to cover to get to that point. I am a SAAI and an inf retread. I know that it is a natural progression for your blokes. It's a big course for one of mine.

Almost every training night there is a requirement to instruct recruits on SAA. There is also trade training, matts and routine work that has to be covered by ICs and SMEs.

That's why I think the answer lies in a short course to permit Jncos to teach low level SAA to recruits.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#20
Mr Snakey, where abouts are you based?

I have SAA, PTI and Range qualified NCOs by the handful, but need to get hold of an RMO type once a month to assist with recruit medicals. If we were really grown up about it, we could Probably come to some arrangement.

Alternatively, we could continue to close the gates behind us as we enter our TACs and ignore the qualifications that might be available nearby for a bit if horse trading!
 

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