Discussion on Poverty, oppression, and Islam.

#1
I was reading an article regarding the attack on the nascent government meeting in Somalia and read an interesting quote from one of the comments. The writer clearly has an anti-islam agenda, I can't help feeling that it's more an anti-religion issue than person or place.

What do you think about Islam as a driving force for poverty? It would seem that some of the poorest and most underdeveloped countries on the planet are majority Islam. I would venture a guess that if some of the other oil countries was not sitting on the lions share of world oil, they would be in the same boat.

What do you think?


I first visited an Islamic country in 1982.

I was 18 years old and had traveled with a Dutch friend from Eilat in Israel to the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm-el-Sheikh.

We were two almost penniless backpacking students.

We slept on the beaches and found hospitality with Egyptians, who spontaneously invited us to tea.

I clearly recall my very first impression of Egypt: I was overwhelmed by the kindness, friendliness and helpfulness of its people.

I also remember my second strong impression of Egypt: It struck me how frightened these friendly and kind people were.

While we were in Sharm el-Sheikh, President Mubarak happened to visit the place.

I remember the fear which suddenly engulfed the town when it was announced that Mubarak was coming on an unexpected visit; I can still see the cavalcade of black cars on the day of his visit and feel the almost physical awareness of fear, like a cold chill on that very hot day in Summer.

It was a weird experience; Mubarak is not considered the worst of the Islamic tyrants and yet, the fear of the ordinary Egyptians for their leader could be felt even by me. I wonder how Saudis feel when their King is in town, how Libyans feel when Gaddafi announces his coming, how Iraqis must have felt when Saddam Hussein was near. A few years later, I read in the Koran how the 7th century Arabs felt in the presence of Muhammad, who, as several verses describe, “cast terror into their hearts” (suras 8:12, 8:60, 33:26, 59:12).

From Sharm el-Sheikh, my friend and I went to Cairo. It was poor and incredibly dirty. My friend and I were amazed that such a poor and filthy place could be a neighbor of Israel, which was so clean. The explanation of the Arabs, with whom we discussed their poverty, was that they were not in any way to blame for this affliction: They said they were the victims of a global conspiracy of “imperialists” and “Zionists”, aimed at keeping Muslims poor and subservient. I found that explanation unconvincing. My instinct told me it had something to do with the different cultures of Israel and Egypt.

I made a mistake in Cairo. We had almost no money and I was thirsty. One could buy a glass of water at public water collectors. It did not look clean, but I drank it. I got a terrible diarrhea. I went to a hostel where one could rent a spot on the floor for two dollars a day. There I lay for several days, a heap of misery in a crowded, stinking room, with ten other guys. Once Egypt had been the most advanced civilization on earth. Why had it not progressed along with the rest of the world?

In the late 1890s, Winston Churchill was a soldier and a war correspondent in British India (contemporary Pakistan) and the Sudan. Churchill was a perceptive young man, whose months in Pakistan and the Sudan allowed him to grasp with amazing clarity what the problem is with Islam and “the curses it lays on its votaries.”

“Besides the fanatical frenzy, …, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy,” he wrote. “The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist where the followers of the Prophet rule or live. … The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to a sole man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. … Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities – but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it.” And Churchill concluded: “No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.”

There are people who say that I hate Muslims. I do not hate Muslims. It saddens me how Islam has robbed them of their dignity.What Islam does to Muslims is visible in the way they treat their daughters. On March 11, 2002, fifteen Saudi schoolgirls died as they attempted to flee from their school in the holy city of Mecca. A fire had set the building ablaze. The girls ran to the school gates but these were locked. The keys were in the possession of a male guard, who refused to open the gates because the girls were not wearing the correct Islamic dress imposed on women by Saudi law: face veils and overgarments.

The “indecently” dressed girls frantically tried to save their young lives. The Saudi police beat them back into the burning building. Officers of the Mutaween, the “Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice,” as the Police are known in Saudi Arabia, also beat passers-by and firemen who tried to help the girls. “It is sinful to approach them,” the policemen warned bystanders. It is not only sinful, it is also a criminal offence.

Girls are not valued highly in Islam; the Koran says that the birth of a daughter makes a father’s “face darken and he is filled with gloom” (sura 43:17). Nevertheless, the incident at the Mecca school drew angry reactions. Islam is inhumane; but Muslims are humans, hence capable of Love – that powerful force which Muhammad despised. Humanity prevailed in the Meccan fathers who were incensed over the deaths of their daughters; it also prevailed in the firemen who confronted theMutaween when the latter were beating the girls back inside, and in the journalists of the Saudi paper which, for the first time in Saudi history, criticized the much feared and powerful “Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.”

However, Muslim protests against Islamic inhumanity are rare. Most Muslims, even in Western countries, visit mosques and listen to shocking Koranic verses and to repulsive sermons without revolting against them.

I am an agnosticus myself. But Christians and Jews hold that God created man in His image. They believe that by observing themselves, as free and rational beings capable of love, they can come to know Him. They can even reason with Him, as the Jews have done throughout their history. The Koran, on the contrary, states that “Nothing can be compared with Allah” (sura 16:74, 42:11). He has absolutely nothing in common with us. It is preposterous to suppose that Allah created man in his image. The biblical concept that God is our father is not found in Islam. There is no personal relationship between man and Allah, either. The purpose of Islam is the total submission of oneself and others to the unknowable Allah, whom we must serve through total obedience to Muhammad as leader of the Islamic state (suras 3:31, 4:80, 24:62, 48:10, 57:28). And history has taught us that Muhammad was not at all a prophet of love and compassion, but a mass murderer, a tyrant and a pedophile. Muslims could not have a more deplorable role model.

Without individual freedom, it is not surprising that the notion of man as a responsible agent is not much developed in Islam. Muslims tend to be very fatalistic. Perhaps – let us certainly hope so – only a few radicals take the Koranic admonition to wage jihad on the unbelievers seriously. Nevertheless, most Muslims never raise their voice against the radicals. This is the “fearful fatalistic apathy” Churchill referred to.

The author Aldous Huxley, who lived in North Africa in the 1920s, made the following observation: “About the immediate causes of things – precisely how they happen – they seem to feel not the slightest interest. Indeed, it is not even admitted that there are such things as immediate causes: God is directly responsible for everything. ‘Do you think it will rain?’ you ask pointing to menacing clouds overhead. ‘If God wills,’ is the answer. You pass the native hospital. ‘Are the doctors good?’ ‘In our country,’ the Arab gravely replies, in the tone of Solomon, ‘we say that doctors are of no avail. If Allah wills that a man die, he will die. If not, he will recover.’ All of which is profoundly true, so true, indeed, that is not worth saying. To the Arab, however, it seems the last word in human wisdom. ... They have relapsed – all except those who are educated according to Western methods – into pre-scientific fatalism, with its attendant incuriosity and apathy.”

Islam deprives Muslims of their freedom. That is a shame, because free people are capable of great things, as history has shown. The Arab, Turkish, Iranian, Indian, Indonesian peoples have tremendous potential. It they were not captives of Islam, if they could liberate themselves from the yoke of Islam, if they would cease to take Muhammad as a role model and if they got rid of the evil Koran, they would be able to achieve great things which would benefit not only them but the entire world.

As a Dutch, a European and a Western politician, my responsibility is primarily to the Dutch people, to the Europeans and the West. However, since the liberation of the Muslims from Islam, will benefit all of us, I wholeheartedly support Muslims who love freedom. My message to them is clear: “Fatalism is no option; ‘Inch’ Allah’ is a curse; Submission is a disgrace.

Free yourselves. It is up to you.

Geert Wilders
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#2
I was reading an article regarding the attack on the nascent government meeting in Somalia and read an interesting quote from one of the comments. The writer clearly has an anti-islam agenda, I can't help feeling that it's more an anti-religion issue than person or place.

What do you think about Islam as a driving force for poverty? It would seem that some of the poorest and most underdeveloped countries on the planet are majority Islam. I would venture a guess that if some of the other oil countries was not sitting on the lions share of world oil, they would be in the same boat.

What do you think?
First off if you have a quick look at countires by GDP it is not entirely clear that countries with a Muslim majority are in fact he poorest: in the main the poorest countries are Sub-Saharan Africa with a generously mixed religious base and controlled by dictatorship and the 1 Party State. Other's are what can be considered micro-states which neither have the population or resources to fund any meaningful development program to help their countries out of poverty.

Islam as a driving force for poverty not likely especially if we take the examples of Bahrain, Dubai, Malaysia and so on

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The real driving force behind "poverty" is a combination of factors stemming from inadequate resources and population base, poor education infrastructure, corruption and the lack of any semblence of a state architecture to coordinate development, disease (malaria, typhus, AIDS, mainly tropical), lack of agricultural land, imbalance between poor and rich (a secured dislocated elite), lawlessness and warloridsm, lack of security, pollution, crippling debts and so on and so forth. All these things would come way before Islam on a list of things that cause poverty.

So it would seem your first hunch, that this is an anti-Islam rant would be correct, especially if one were to examine the totality of Somali History since Independence in the post war years - the dictatorship of Sidi Barre has more to do with the failure of the state than the Islamists


edited to add: hmm I just noiticed that the author was Geert Wilders, ignorant rubbish peddling twat that he is.
 
#3
First off if you have a quick look at countires by GDP it is not entirely clear that countries with a Muslim majority are in fact he poorest: in the main the poorest countries are Sub-Saharan Africa with a generously mixed religious base and controlled by dictatorship and the 1 Party State. Other's are what can be considered micro-states which neither have the population or resources to fund any meaningful development program to help their countries out of poverty.

Islam as a driving force for poverty not likely especially if we take the examples of Bahrain, Dubai, Malaysia and so on

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The real driving force behind "poverty" is a combination of factors stemming from inadequate resources and population base, poor education infrastructure, corruption and the lack of any semblence of a state architecture to coordinate development, disease (malaria, typhus, AIDS, mainly tropical), lack of agricultural land, imbalance between poor and rich (a secured dislocated elite), lawlessness and warloridsm, lack of security, pollution, crippling debts and so on and so forth. All these things would come way before Islam on a list of things that cause poverty.

So it would seem your first hunch, that this is an anti-Islam rant would be correct, especially if one were to examine the totality of Somali History since Independence in the post war years - the dictatorship of Sidi Barre has more to do with the failure of the state than the Islamists


edited to add: hmm I just noiticed that the author was Geert Wilders, ignorant rubbish peddling twat that he is.

I didn't know that this Geert Wilders person was a person of interest. It was in a random quote that you see on the bottom of an online news article and thought that it was at least somewhat different than the usual anti <your cause here> rants you see.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#4
He describes President Mubarak as an Islamic dictator, there is nothing Islamist about Mubarak other than he was born and raised a Muslim, he, if anything is clothed with a secular nationalist outlook with militaristic underpants. One could just as easily describe Franco or Pinochet as Catholic Dictators, though they were militarist facists. Wilders is once again peddling sophistries to push his own nationalistic and racist ideas.
 
#5
What do you think?
Since the article was written by Geert Wilders I think it's a ******* shame he didn't die on the hostel floor whilst shitting his bowels out.

The writer clearly has an anti-islam agenda, I can't help feeling that it's more an anti-religion issue than person or place.
A wah surely.

He's a notorious politician in The Netherlands who'd like to ban Islam. He refuses to call it a religion, instead he refers to it as a political ideology.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#6
Since the article was written by Geert Wilders I think it's a ******* shame he didn't die on the hostel floor whilst shitting his bowels out.

He's a notorious politician in The Netherlands who'd like to ban Islam. He refuses to call it a religion, instead he refers to it as a political ideology.

He also looks an unter twunt, have a read of his wiki bio though ghost and make your own mind up:
Geert Wilders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#7
He also looks an unter twunt[/url]
Yep he looks like a Mozart walt. Unfortunately he was one of the winners of the last elections. I can only hope his wig will catch fire and that he dies.

Us_ghost, no offence, but Geert Wilders is a man with extreme opinions. He'll be in New York during the nex 9/11 commemoration to tell New Yorkers why Islam is evil and why there shouldn't be an Islamic center close by.....
 
#9
Since the article was written by Geert Wilders I think it's a ******* shame he didn't die on the hostel floor whilst shitting his bowels out.



A wah surely.

He's a notorious politician in The Netherlands who'd like to ban Islam. He refuses to call it a religion, instead he refers to it as a political ideology.
Not a wah in the least.

The quote is not the article but out of the comments section at the bottom.

Militants slaughter lawmakers at Somali hotel - World news - Africa - Somalia - msnbc.com

Scroll to the bottom to see it, or reply to it.

Perhaps he is notorious is Europe but I have to apologize for being a typical "American" and having no clue who that guy is.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#10
Not a wah in the least.

The quote is not the article but out of the comments section at the bottom.

Militants slaughter lawmakers at Somali hotel - World news - Africa - Somalia - msnbc.com

Scroll to the bottom to see it, or reply to it.

Perhaps he is notorious is Europe but I have to apologize for being a typical "American" and having no clue who that guy is.
Linkie no workie for me.

Not your fault that you don't know him Ghost, he's a loud mouth non-entity tbh.

Militants slay lawmakers - often a tactic employed by militant groups throughout the world, in this case Islamic, well because they are in an Islamic country, could be Marxists, in S. America next time, or Maoist in South Asia, it just depends. The packaging (Islam) is not so much as important as the Toy, militants are like Barbie Dolls, basically the same thing all over the world just different outfits and heels. Jihad Barbie anyone, FARC Ken perhaps, Shinner Sindy????????
 
#11
Some of the things Geert W may say are unpleasant and politcally incorrect, however he is NO racist.

The questions regarding islamic under achievement with regards to poverty/development are perfectly valid.
The countries that were mentioned by Rampant "Bahrain, Dubai, Malaysia" well lets just look at those three.

Bahrain, Dubai= oil wealth
All technical developments courtesy of non islamic countries/oil companies

Malaysia = large non moslem Chinese & Indian population that provides the economic productivity.

This Frontpagemag article is discussing the same issue.

Islam

Also by Professor Moorthy Muthuswamy

Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently?

Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently? - Jihad Watch

I take the view that Churchill was right in his assesment of islam and I do not believe that the koran should be banned, on the contrary it should be exposed, dissected under a critical eye as should the Hadith, the Sunnah and every other holy book, sky fairy claptrap.
Remove the oil wealth from the arab world, namely those around the Gulf, then what have they achieved??

By the way I don't see how Geert W can be racist, he is good friends Ayann Hirsi Ali, just because one is critical of islam does not make you a racist.
 
#12
Some of the things Geert W may say are unpleasant and politcally incorrect, however he is NO racist.

The questions regarding islamic under achievement with regards to poverty/development are perfectly valid.
The countries that were mentioned by Rampant "Bahrain, Dubai, Malaysia" well lets just look at those three.

Bahrain, Dubai= oil wealth
All technical developments courtesy of non islamic countries/oil companies

Malaysia = large non moslem Chinese & Indian population that provides the economic productivity.

This Frontpagemag article is discussing the same issue.

Islam

Also by Professor Moorthy Muthuswamy

Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently?

Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently? - Jihad Watch

I take the view that Churchill was right in his assesment of islam and I do not believe that the koran should be banned, on the contrary it should be exposed, dissected under a critical eye as should the Hadith, the Sunnah and every other holy book, sky fairy claptrap.
Remove the oil wealth from the arab world, namely those around the Gulf, then what have they achieved??

By the way I don't see how Geert W can be racist, he is good friends Ayann Hirsi Ali, just because one is critical of islam does not make you a racist.
Sasrikal John Singh, Sardar-Ji by heritage only I take it or proper Sardar? Are you aware what else Churchill had to say about India as a whole:

"If the British left, "India will fall back quite rapidly through the centuries into the barbarism and privations of the Middle Ages".

"I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion"

"flourish on Indians breeding like rabbits and being paid a million a day by us for doing nothing by us about the war."

Are you under the impression that he singled out the Muslims for these quotes are do you rather think he meant all people? Why India an Pakistan have evolved so differently is a tad more complicated than the linky you post.

Geert W is a dimwit intellectual flyweight that uses the internet for his sources. Bit like the lads who quote wikipedia to back their arguments here...
 
#13
He's taken two experiences of individual incidents in Arab or Arabised countries and extrapolated them into an argument against a religion the majority of whose adherents are are not Arabs or Arabised. I can think of several incidents from my own experience which contradict Wilders' asertions and which demonstrate exactly the opposite properties he ascribes to dem pesky Muslims.

Indonesia is an overwhelmingly Muslim country which isn't doing too badly, economically speaking. Good population growth, decent life expectancy, GDP and GDP per capita above average for the region. Brunei's another place I would rate as nice to be and it's officially Islamic (governed by the Malay Islamic Monarchy).

Where my missus is from, the largest ethnic minority are Muslim and renowned as hard grafters - particularly in the food industries. They've got female Imams, women-only mosques and everything.
 
#14
Not a wah in the least.

The quote is not the article but out of the comments section at the bottom.

Militants slaughter lawmakers at Somali hotel - World news - Africa - Somalia - msnbc.com

Scroll to the bottom to see it, or reply to it.

Perhaps he is notorious is Europe but I have to apologize for being a typical "American" and having no clue who that guy is.
Just today I came across a speech he delivered recently in New Jersey, along the lines of "not all is well in the old world".

Look this mong up; he is anti-islam pro Israel and his sources are dubious at the best of times and his arguments are downright ridiculous. You'll find loons like him in every European country on the far right, their arguments are catchy to some, easy solutions, quick fixes, ban this, kick them out, ban that etc. Somalia has been one fucked up place for more than 25 years (remember black hawk down and the subsequent pull out of US peacekeepers?), no one gives a toss about them as they do not have oil or gas and if it were not for piracy (the one with eye-patches and parrots, not the DVD-copying one) no one would even take note of that country.

Now, you suggest the some of the poorest countries in the world are islamic countries, I do not dispute that a lot of predominantly muslim or Islamic republics have major issues and need reform, but if you take PPP as yardstick (Purchasing Power Parity or a countries total GDP divided by its population), you will discover that the first 'Islamic' country apart from Somalia is Afghanistan no 17 from the bottom until you come to Bangladesh at position 198 of 227. There are plenty non-islamic countries in the bottom 20, so poverty is everywhere, unfortunately.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...urkey&countryCode=tu&regionCode=me&rank=97#tu
 
#15
viceroy,

I think I am just Sikh by heritage, my fondness for alcohol prohibits anything else!

I am perfectly aware of what Churchills opinion of Indians was and of the words you quoted. He was a true imperialist and Empire loyalist. However he was a product of his time. I know he hated Indians. Who cares ?he was the man for the job when Britain needed leadership during a war of survival.

I have known many moslems both Arab & Pakistani as I am sure most people on this forum have, I am not religous at all, my wife is Anglican and my kids as well (except on Saturdays, when they are a mixture of Sikh & Jewish)

My experience of Arab & Pakistani moslems is that there is an absolute refusal to discuss the cause of problems and a willingness to indulge in exaggerated conspiracy theories and paranoia. There is a tendency to blame others for all the wrongs that they have experienced. Also there is a reluctance to question authority, whether religious or political, probably due to the dire consequences of doing so.

Yes it is a generalisation, I am sure others have had different experiences. With regards to Indonesia, the two Indonesians I have met made it clear that they were greatful they had retained some connections with their Buddhist/Hindu heritage and not become arabicised, could this be the reason for Indonesias stability & progress??
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#16
Look this mong up; he is anti-islam pro Israel and his sources are dubious at the best of times and his arguments are downright ridiculous.
I'm afraid that shows your colours very plainly - your disparaging reference to his being 'pro-Israel', therefore in your eyes little further needs to be said.............
 

ACAB

On ROPS
On ROPs
#17
I'm afraid that shows your colours very plainly - your disparaging reference to his being 'pro-Israel', therefore in your eyes little further needs to be said.............
You beat me to it, but yes, .....agenda
 
#18
Yes it is a generalisation, I am sure others have had different experiences. With regards to Indonesia, the two Indonesians I have met made it clear that they were greatful they had retained some connections with their Buddhist/Hindu heritage and not become arabicised, could this be the reason for Indonesias tability & progress??
I was involved a few years back in a scholarship run by a consortia of UK universities for the survivors of the Banda Aceh tsunami. As you can imagine, there were a fair few Muslims involved, both from Aceh province and the rest of Indonesia. All of them were Islamic to the core.

Whatever point he may have been attempting to make about the Arab world, it doesn't apply to Islam itself. If that's the depth his analysis can reach and he can't distinguish between culture and religion then Wilders genuinely deserves the appellation, 'mong'.
 
#19
Whatever point he may have been attempting to make about the Arab world, it doesn't apply to Islam itself. If that's the depth his analysis can reach and he can't distinguish between culture and religion then Wilders genuinely deserves the appellation, 'mong'.
His views on Islam are xenophobic and he refuses to call it a religion. In his opinion it's a political ideology similar to fascism. Have a look at his "film" fitna. In order to back up his statement that we're currently facing a tsunami of Muslims he does some serious ******* up with statistics. Showing figures of The Netherlands first and ending with a figure for the whole of Europe (it runs into 50 something million). Conveniently leaving out the numbers which show a decline in Muslim residents in recent years. Or should we interpret that as the typical withdrawal of the sea prior to a tsunami.......

He refuses to debate about the issues he believes are of vital importance. Instead, he throws around one liners and accuses politicians who disagree with him as being naieve without backing up his arguments. He's been challenged to have a proper debate about it on national television, but unfortunately he's too clever to have himself outed as the national clown.

Since he's been receiving serious death threats in recent years he's now the most guarded/secured man in the country, sleeping in different places every night and sometimes having to move during the night to a new shelter. He's a prisoner of his own hate campaign. Which is very sad. Both for him as for the country. The fact that he's under threat from Muslim extremists acts as a prove for his followers that Islam is a danger. Wilders can't make a distinction between culture and religion, and between religion and extremism. I'd like to see him in a government coalition so his voters can see him compromising over his favourite subject over and over and over again.
 
#20
I'm afraid that shows your colours very plainly - your disparaging reference to his being 'pro-Israel', therefore in your eyes little further needs to be said.............
You chose to understand me miss. If only you could accept that there is something beyond black and white. I do not fit into the anti-semitic drawer at all. There is nothing wrong with being pro-Israel in itself, if you ask me that question isolated, I am pro- Israel vs. 'contra Israel' (e.g. Iran's stance to wipe them off the map). It is the combination of islamophobia and what one could pro-Zionist if you prefer that make for his strange arguments.
 

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