Discussion on Poverty, oppression, and Islam.

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by ghost_us, Aug 24, 2010.

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  1. I was reading an article regarding the attack on the nascent government meeting in Somalia and read an interesting quote from one of the comments. The writer clearly has an anti-islam agenda, I can't help feeling that it's more an anti-religion issue than person or place.

    What do you think about Islam as a driving force for poverty? It would seem that some of the poorest and most underdeveloped countries on the planet are majority Islam. I would venture a guess that if some of the other oil countries was not sitting on the lions share of world oil, they would be in the same boat.

    What do you think?

  2. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    First off if you have a quick look at countires by GDP it is not entirely clear that countries with a Muslim majority are in fact he poorest: in the main the poorest countries are Sub-Saharan Africa with a generously mixed religious base and controlled by dictatorship and the 1 Party State. Other's are what can be considered micro-states which neither have the population or resources to fund any meaningful development program to help their countries out of poverty.

    Islam as a driving force for poverty not likely especially if we take the examples of Bahrain, Dubai, Malaysia and so on

    List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The real driving force behind "poverty" is a combination of factors stemming from inadequate resources and population base, poor education infrastructure, corruption and the lack of any semblence of a state architecture to coordinate development, disease (malaria, typhus, AIDS, mainly tropical), lack of agricultural land, imbalance between poor and rich (a secured dislocated elite), lawlessness and warloridsm, lack of security, pollution, crippling debts and so on and so forth. All these things would come way before Islam on a list of things that cause poverty.

    So it would seem your first hunch, that this is an anti-Islam rant would be correct, especially if one were to examine the totality of Somali History since Independence in the post war years - the dictatorship of Sidi Barre has more to do with the failure of the state than the Islamists

    edited to add: hmm I just noiticed that the author was Geert Wilders, ignorant rubbish peddling twat that he is.

  3. I didn't know that this Geert Wilders person was a person of interest. It was in a random quote that you see on the bottom of an online news article and thought that it was at least somewhat different than the usual anti <your cause here> rants you see.
  4. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    He describes President Mubarak as an Islamic dictator, there is nothing Islamist about Mubarak other than he was born and raised a Muslim, he, if anything is clothed with a secular nationalist outlook with militaristic underpants. One could just as easily describe Franco or Pinochet as Catholic Dictators, though they were militarist facists. Wilders is once again peddling sophistries to push his own nationalistic and racist ideas.
  5. Since the article was written by Geert Wilders I think it's a ******* shame he didn't die on the hostel floor whilst shitting his bowels out.

    A wah surely.

    He's a notorious politician in The Netherlands who'd like to ban Islam. He refuses to call it a religion, instead he refers to it as a political ideology.
  6. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    He also looks an unter twunt, have a read of his wiki bio though ghost and make your own mind up:
    Geert Wilders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  7. Yep he looks like a Mozart walt. Unfortunately he was one of the winners of the last elections. I can only hope his wig will catch fire and that he dies.

    Us_ghost, no offence, but Geert Wilders is a man with extreme opinions. He'll be in New York during the nex 9/11 commemoration to tell New Yorkers why Islam is evil and why there shouldn't be an Islamic center close by.....
  8. Not a wah in the least.

    The quote is not the article but out of the comments section at the bottom.

    Militants slaughter lawmakers at Somali hotel - World news - Africa - Somalia - msnbc.com

    Scroll to the bottom to see it, or reply to it.

    Perhaps he is notorious is Europe but I have to apologize for being a typical "American" and having no clue who that guy is.
  9. rampant

    rampant LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    Linkie no workie for me.

    Not your fault that you don't know him Ghost, he's a loud mouth non-entity tbh.

    Militants slay lawmakers - often a tactic employed by militant groups throughout the world, in this case Islamic, well because they are in an Islamic country, could be Marxists, in S. America next time, or Maoist in South Asia, it just depends. The packaging (Islam) is not so much as important as the Toy, militants are like Barbie Dolls, basically the same thing all over the world just different outfits and heels. Jihad Barbie anyone, FARC Ken perhaps, Shinner Sindy????????
  10. Some of the things Geert W may say are unpleasant and politcally incorrect, however he is NO racist.

    The questions regarding islamic under achievement with regards to poverty/development are perfectly valid.
    The countries that were mentioned by Rampant "Bahrain, Dubai, Malaysia" well lets just look at those three.

    Bahrain, Dubai= oil wealth
    All technical developments courtesy of non islamic countries/oil companies

    Malaysia = large non moslem Chinese & Indian population that provides the economic productivity.

    This Frontpagemag article is discussing the same issue.


    Also by Professor Moorthy Muthuswamy

    Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently?

    Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently? - Jihad Watch

    I take the view that Churchill was right in his assesment of islam and I do not believe that the koran should be banned, on the contrary it should be exposed, dissected under a critical eye as should the Hadith, the Sunnah and every other holy book, sky fairy claptrap.
    Remove the oil wealth from the arab world, namely those around the Gulf, then what have they achieved??

    By the way I don't see how Geert W can be racist, he is good friends Ayann Hirsi Ali, just because one is critical of islam does not make you a racist.
  11. Sasrikal John Singh, Sardar-Ji by heritage only I take it or proper Sardar? Are you aware what else Churchill had to say about India as a whole:

    "If the British left, "India will fall back quite rapidly through the centuries into the barbarism and privations of the Middle Ages".

    "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion"

    "flourish on Indians breeding like rabbits and being paid a million a day by us for doing nothing by us about the war."

    Are you under the impression that he singled out the Muslims for these quotes are do you rather think he meant all people? Why India an Pakistan have evolved so differently is a tad more complicated than the linky you post.

    Geert W is a dimwit intellectual flyweight that uses the internet for his sources. Bit like the lads who quote wikipedia to back their arguments here...
  12. He's taken two experiences of individual incidents in Arab or Arabised countries and extrapolated them into an argument against a religion the majority of whose adherents are are not Arabs or Arabised. I can think of several incidents from my own experience which contradict Wilders' asertions and which demonstrate exactly the opposite properties he ascribes to dem pesky Muslims.

    Indonesia is an overwhelmingly Muslim country which isn't doing too badly, economically speaking. Good population growth, decent life expectancy, GDP and GDP per capita above average for the region. Brunei's another place I would rate as nice to be and it's officially Islamic (governed by the Malay Islamic Monarchy).

    Where my missus is from, the largest ethnic minority are Muslim and renowned as hard grafters - particularly in the food industries. They've got female Imams, women-only mosques and everything.
  13. Just today I came across a speech he delivered recently in New Jersey, along the lines of "not all is well in the old world".

    Look this mong up; he is anti-islam pro Israel and his sources are dubious at the best of times and his arguments are downright ridiculous. You'll find loons like him in every European country on the far right, their arguments are catchy to some, easy solutions, quick fixes, ban this, kick them out, ban that etc. Somalia has been one fucked up place for more than 25 years (remember black hawk down and the subsequent pull out of US peacekeepers?), no one gives a toss about them as they do not have oil or gas and if it were not for piracy (the one with eye-patches and parrots, not the DVD-copying one) no one would even take note of that country.

    Now, you suggest the some of the poorest countries in the world are islamic countries, I do not dispute that a lot of predominantly muslim or Islamic republics have major issues and need reform, but if you take PPP as yardstick (Purchasing Power Parity or a countries total GDP divided by its population), you will discover that the first 'Islamic' country apart from Somalia is Afghanistan no 17 from the bottom until you come to Bangladesh at position 198 of 227. There are plenty non-islamic countries in the bottom 20, so poverty is everywhere, unfortunately.

  14. viceroy,

    I think I am just Sikh by heritage, my fondness for alcohol prohibits anything else!

    I am perfectly aware of what Churchills opinion of Indians was and of the words you quoted. He was a true imperialist and Empire loyalist. However he was a product of his time. I know he hated Indians. Who cares ?he was the man for the job when Britain needed leadership during a war of survival.

    I have known many moslems both Arab & Pakistani as I am sure most people on this forum have, I am not religous at all, my wife is Anglican and my kids as well (except on Saturdays, when they are a mixture of Sikh & Jewish)

    My experience of Arab & Pakistani moslems is that there is an absolute refusal to discuss the cause of problems and a willingness to indulge in exaggerated conspiracy theories and paranoia. There is a tendency to blame others for all the wrongs that they have experienced. Also there is a reluctance to question authority, whether religious or political, probably due to the dire consequences of doing so.

    Yes it is a generalisation, I am sure others have had different experiences. With regards to Indonesia, the two Indonesians I have met made it clear that they were greatful they had retained some connections with their Buddhist/Hindu heritage and not become arabicised, could this be the reason for Indonesias stability & progress??