Discipline

#1
Have a question for anyone that may be able to help me

I am currently on tour and working in a Tri-Service enviroment, so my immediate boss is RAF.
Whilst i was away on R&R was involved in a bit of a scuffle/slanging match outside of a bar, friends and family involved. The police tipped up and because i was a bit to choice with my language and not sort of moving on, was arrested. To cut a long story short, was charged with a public disorder offence, spent a night on the cells, got up, paid the fine of £80.00 quid and then returned to the said tour. On my return i informed my boss of what had occured, and thought no more about it, as he said "yes no problem".....However a couple of weeks later, i get called up by the OC, and he tells me i will more than likely get done on AGAI 67 action for being a senior rank, and bringing the military into disrepute etc etc...
I would like to know how i stand on this matter as i feel that i have already been "done" by the police, so end of story, have asked various people and all i am getting back is different answers, like this is the RAF way etc..Not happy the coppers informing the Army in the first place as my brother who was also lifted, never had a letter sent to his bosses informing them he had been arrested at the weekend and he is a paramedic.
Any advice would be appreciated....
 
#2
AGAI 67 action is administrative, not disciplinary. It is your OC's right (indeed, in some respects his duty) to take administrative action. Given that you are a senior rank, have been charged with a public order offence by civpol and acquired a criminal record (congratulations for that, by the way) the very least you should expect is a Formal Warning. Application for reduction in rank and removal from post would not be considered excessive under these circumstances.

Note that this is not, strictly, a "punishment" for your offence (for which you have already been fined) but an administrative response to a perceived failure in your ability to do your duty, i.e. set a good example, exercise self-restraint and put the reputation of the Service before yourself.

If you are a SNCO then you should have done CLM and this should all have been explained as a part of the course.

IF
 
#3
Oh come on, if they bust every Senior who got p*ssed on R&R and ended up in a punch up, we wouldn't have many senior ranks, unless you want an army full of choir boys.
You've paid your fine, why the feck should you be punished twice if its not affecting your ability to do your job? Calling it an administrative response is bollocks, don't accept the AGAI 67, get yourself a brief and watch them sh*t themselves!
 
#4
Yes I have done the CLM course thanks IdeasFactory and yes, i know my behaviour wasnt that expected of a SNCO, but unfortunatly for me your taking the RAF point of view, however think i will go along the route of Warrior_poet, as i feel it best to get myself a civvie brief, its funny how many people are whiter than white, when dishing out remarks to peoples behaviour, and never do anything wrong...I myself have pretty much enjoyed myself the 16 years i have been in, and sorry but i joined a trade were the motto is work hard and play hard...Not everyones cup of tea i must admit, as we do have discipline trouble from time to time, luckily for me when i was a junior we had decent seniors to look after us, and myself and a few others in turn, look after the lads...I think it is now quite sad that certain individuals take pleasure in seeing lads stung by this AGAI 67 bollo**s, even at the unit i am serving we were told by the OC that more AGAI 67s needed to be dished out, so we can have better work parties at the weekends (how very sad) he never got any of my lads, as minor discipline matters can be sorted by myself without the need for any officer to find out...So thanks for the advice, but wont be accepting any AGAI 67 as done the said crime and dont feel i need to be told by anyone i was in the wrong for it, if it goes much further, then i will be standing by for a court martial !!
 
#5
Shines,

You are wasting your breath.

AGAI 67 is purely administrative and is in no way similar to the disciplinary/summary dealing process.

If you are found guilty in a civilian court or are given a statutory fine (an admission of guilt), Major Administrative AGAI 67 action MUST take place.

It is not a matter of accepting the Sanction, it happens (although there is a reviwing officer etc appointed if you so wish)

You will not get the option of going to Court Martial as it is not a disciplinary matter.

By all means engage a solicitor and waste your cash. He has no part to play in the process and has absolutely no jurisdiction over administrative action.

I suggest that you stop bleating like a Pte soldier barrack room lawyer, take your sanction and read the regulations.
 
#6
A quick addition to this. AGAI 67 is not recognised by the RAF (I work on an RAF Station). What probably happened was that your OC mentioned it to someone in the Army who immediately jumped on the do as much as we can bandwaggon. However, it clearly states in the AGAI that administrative action must be considered for Formal police cautions, Anti Social Behaviour Orders, Football Banning Orders, Fixed Penalty Notices or equivalent police actions issued by other national police forces.

Your offence will be considered as LOW and will demand an award of a Letter of Censure with possible mitigation to Minor Sanctions.

Plead your case and you should get away with a written warning.
 
#7
Cheers AbleAndy...and to you Bellthrob, just to let you know i am not bleating about anything, just trying to find out were i stood on the matter ok. How fair is the system, as i know for a fact the civpol dont inform your employer if your a civvie, and also just to let you know i would never have accepted the fixed penalty, if it wasnt for the fact i was due back in theatre the next day, so thought to myself to save going to my boss and telling him i have a court appearance to attend, just pay the fine and its done with, as at the time the police told me...obviously not eh !
 
#8
I beleve (someone help me here) that there is a condition that the police must inform an employer if a member of the crown service is arrested, probably due to the fact that you are not available for immediate deployment if you are locked up. As the Paramedic now works for a Trust he would no longer come under this rule. I think the fire brigade are still covered by this as well.
 
#9
Shines, AGAI 67 admin action is an attempt by MOD to circumvent Human Rights legislation, it is effectively punishing you twice for the same offence irrespective of how they couch it. Given the circumstances of your deployment and the fact you paid your fine so as not to cause problems with your tour, your boss would have to be a real cnut to take any action apart from a bollocking. A letter of censure will career foul you and be far more financially damaging than a mere fine. AGAI 67 is being seriously abused by some units and in some cases is little more than legalised bullying.
 
#10
Warrior_Poet said:
Shines, AGAI 67 admin action is an attempt by MOD to circumvent Human Rights legislation, it is effectively punishing you twice for the same offence irrespective of how they couch it. Given the circumstances of your deployment and the fact you paid your fine so as not to cause problems with your tour, your boss would have to be a real cnut to take any action apart from a bollocking. A letter of censure will career foul you and be far more financially damaging than a mere fine. AGAI 67 is being seriously abused by some units and in some cases is little more than legalised bullying.
I sympathise with your views to a point WP, but it is broader than you say. I agree that once punished by the civ system, anything other than a bo**ocking (which is probably justified) by the mil system is tantamount to double jeopardy and is a disgrace. I have suffered it myself and it has affected my career.

But, AGAI 67 does have its role for both major and minor cases. At the minor level, there was for some time in wide swathes of the Army a feeling that junior ocmmanders felt that they did not have the authority to dish out punishments as they used to for minor offences (late on parade, unshaven, minor insubordination etc) without going through the formal charging process, causing the nightmare paper trail to kick in. Whilst formal action is sometimes justified even for minor offences, the pain in the neck caused by the paperwork makes it undesirable or not worthwhile.

Hence AGAI 67 - get him/ her into the office, give the bo**ocking, award a minor sanction, get said individual to sign the form and give it to the CSM/ SSM/ BSM etc as called for by unit standing orders. The key here is good oversight from the Chain of Command. In my unit, OCs check the sheets weekly and all Sgt Majs are called in monthly to check that none are kicking the arrse out of it, that punishments are equivalent across the Regt and that no individuals are being hard done by. Individuals can appeal up to the CO if they want (and higher I am sure). Commanders must make sure soldiers are clear on the rights and encourage them to exercise them. If there is a miscarriage of justice then bring it to light. If the punishment is fair then live with it.
 
#11
Able Andy,

i work in a tri-service unit and have been briefed that AGAI applies to the RAF and Navy that work with me. Maybe there is a wording difference with exchange / loan posts etc but i believe i CAN AGAI if required.

Haven't needed to use it on them though
 
#12
Civpol have a duty to inform Mil Authorities of the arrest of Mil personnel, as previously stated for operational purposes, and confirmation that they are not AWOL, (civpol normally only informed after 21 days). As a rule civ employers aren't informed however, the Military is not a civil employment, is goes with the territory I'm afraid!!!!!
 
#13
AbleAndy said:
A quick addition to this. AGAI 67 is not recognised by the RAF (I work on an RAF Station). What probably happened was that your OC mentioned it to someone in the Army who immediately jumped on the do as much as we can bandwaggon. However, it clearly states in the AGAI that administrative action must be considered for Formal police cautions, Anti Social Behaviour Orders, Football Banning Orders, Fixed Penalty Notices or equivalent police actions issued by other national police forces.

Your offence will be considered as LOW and will demand an award of a Letter of Censure with possible mitigation to Minor Sanctions.

Plead your case and you should get away with a written warning.
It depends on which RAF unit. I have just returned from serving with a joint unit, AGAI 67 was accepted by the RAF.

AGAI isnt exactly new. Like everything else in the Army it just changed names. Those old and bold who remember the days of being charged under Sect 69 of the AA 55 for bringing the Army into disrepute. This wasn't double jeapordy as you weren't being punished for the initial offence.

Civillian firms have had admin action in place for years. AGAI 67 is the Army bringing itself into line with workers rights etc.
 
#14
The problem with AGAI 67 is that it is Army General Administrative Instruction 67. There is no official RAF equivalent and whilst some RAF officers are happy to use it, it has no legal standing in the RAF Chain of Command. At the moment the AOC (Air Officer in Chief) has stated that he does not believe in the AGAI process, he wants to keep to the RAF current system of having plenty of warm cozy chats to solve problems as opposed to actually dealing with them.

I believe that it will all depend on who the CO of the unit is. Here we have an RAF officer and so we all come under the RAF Discipline Act and so if anyone is charged it is the RAF Act and an "Orderly Room" which is their version of Orders.
 
#15
shines said:
Have a question for anyone that may be able to help me
Further to answers received to date; collusion between Police & MOD is widespread but is almost certainly illegal. I suggest you contact the chief constable and submit a 'subject access request' under the DPA 98 to both organisations. Once you've joined the dots sit on it until they try the old 'ats-off' routine; you can then produce it like a white rabbit.......


An informal chat with MOD police or RMP SNCO may help.

Take a look at the Information Commisioners website too.
 
#16
fingers - fascinating but irrelevant. Shines told his boss himself - as he was required to by the rules. Admin action follows. If you don't want to be dealt with for behaving badly...
 
#17
Von-Ryan said:
fingers - fascinating but irrelevant. Shines told his boss himself - as he was required to by the rules. Admin action follows. If you don't want to be dealt with for behaving badly...

Not quite. If he uncovers a papertrail in the manner I described both organisations will be seriously in the shit.
 
#18
unfortunatly for me your taking the RAF point of view, however think i will go along the route of Warrior_poet, as i feel it best to get myself a civvie brief
I wasn't taking any point of view, shines. I was setting it out as it's described in the document. Go ahead and instruct a brief - it's your money - but the legal standing of AGAI 67 is cast-iron. If the consequences of a criminal action affect your ability to perform your job then an employer is entitled to move you to another post, demote you or - if no suitable alternative employment can be found - terminate your employment. Discrimination law protects you from this treatment on the grounds of sex, race, sexual orientation, age or religious conviction, but not on the grounds of having a criminal record.

if they bust every Senior who got p*ssed on R&R and ended up in a punch up, we wouldn't have many senior ranks
(1) I disagree with your premise, however that's not entirely relevant as (2) we're not talking about a mutally-agreeable punch-up on the mess lawn here - this was an act of Affray that involved police being called. I've stood up in Crown Court as Assisting Officer to a soldier on an Affray charge and watched her co-defendants getting sent down for 6 months, so don't try to pretend to me that this is some p*ss-ant little slap on the wrist!

AGAI 67 is not recognised by the RAF (I work on an RAF Station).
This is a common misconception. The RAF have formally recognized that Army personnel under their command are subject to AGAI 67; however, the invocation of aGAI 67 is at the discretion of the CO in all cases and most RAF Station Commanders choose to apply a level playing-field and treat Army personnel under their command the same way as they treat RAF personnel (i.e. no AGAI 67). The RAF have also agreed that RAF personnel in a unit operating under the Army Act can be dealt with under AGAI 67 for the same reason: level playing field within the unit.

So thanks for the advice, but wont be accepting any AGAI 67 as done the said crime and dont feel i need to be told by anyone i was in the wrong for it, if it goes much further, then i will be standing by for a court martial !!
AGAI 67 does not affect your rights under s180 of the Army Act or AGAI 70. You are not obligated to accept the sanction awarded. There is a process of review and appeal associated with AGAI 67 and laid out in the relevant chapter. However, all cries of "double jeopardy!" and "done the crime, done the time!" are futile. This is a question of Employment Law, not Criminal Law. Like it or lump it.

IF
 
#19
IdeasFactory..I perhaps have mislead people into believing i was involved in some fight/scuffle, this is not the case. Like i said its a long story, so just to put a few people in the picture, it was in fact a family member, who was arrested, by a couple of civpol police, and i stupidly thinking (after drinking a bit) I am a SNCO and we work/have an affinity with the police, will sort this. So as they were quite roughly carting him off to the wagon i stood in front of the doors and pleaded with the police to give him a break, saying something along the lines of "look mate i am a squaddie i can sort this" I admit was told if i didnt move away from door i would be joining him...needless to say £80.00 fine. I would have gone to court and pleaded my case of not guilty etc but as was told by the police desk Sgt just pay it and thats the end of it or appear in court in three weeks, thought ok I will pay as, dont want the hassle of saying to the boss when i get back, i have to go back to the UK for a court appearance. However i am now wishing I had !
 
#20
There have been dozens of threads on what can and what can’t be done under AGAI 67, the majority seem to be from aggrieved persons (outraged of Catterick) looking for some sort of faceless moral support from the plethora of Barrack room lawyers that seem to lurk on this site.

I don’t profess to be any sort of leagal expert, however, I find the best way of trying to find an answer to something is to go to the source AGAI 67 This wont always give the answer I want, but at least it will be factual.

With regard to some of the arguments above see the Para’s below:

Double Jeopardy

67.005 Administrative Action may be taken subsequent to Disciplinary Action or prosecution in a civil court, regardless of whether the accused is convicted or acquitted. Such action does not amount to double jeopardy, nor is it in principle oppressive or unfair. It is an established and legally robust dimension of employment practice and is entirely in keeping with the regulation of other professions. It is entirely reasonable for the Army to take into account the employment consequences of a serviceman’s failings.

AGAI 67 Appeals

67.006 Both components of the Army’s discipline system contain provisions for an individual to seek a review of their case and formally to appeal. Disciplinary Action includes appeal to the Summary Appeal Court; petition to the Army Reviewing Authority after conviction at court-martial; and appeal to the Court-Martial Appeal Court. These are all statutory rights. Administrative Action includes review by a superior commander and complaint or appeal to the Army Board under Section 180 of the Army Act 1955. This latter appeal too is a statutory right (which recognises the restricted rights of access of Service personnel to employment tribunals).

Due to the amount of discussion this topic generates it may be an idea to have a link to the URL (available on the Army site) as a sticky
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top