Disciple problem, faced with disharge without court marshall for a civil offence

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by Tseng, Jul 8, 2010.

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  1. Very big problem i am faced with and i really thought your CO can only give you a dishonorable discharge if you go to court marshall.

    I am facing a minor criminal damage charge to a taxi headlight for the value of £150 in civilian court next wednesday.

    My troop commander had spoke with the SSM and he has stated that if i am found guilty with just even a fine i will be discharged from the army. Surely this can only happen upon a court martial. I could understand if i got community service then fair enough it would stop me from carrying out weekend duties etc. But i have sorted that out with the solicitor and if i plead guilty then i would only get a fine due to me deploying on ops in september.

    Any help concerning this would be greatly appreciated
    Thank you
     
  2. Jesus had similar trouble with his disciples, after they had a few wines they would end up fighting with the Roman picket, chopping ears off and so on. took him all his powers to keep Peter off COs orders...
     
  3. ..and with them scrawling ROMANI EUNT DOMUS all over the place-oh and Tseng, your CO can do exactly what the feck he likes with you-if he wants rid of you he can apply for discharge under Admin Action. Any decision will have to be ratified, but if he wants shot of you (perhaps this is not your first offence or you have other professional shortcomings) you will once again be sampling the delights of Civilian life
     
  4. (Showing age)

    Is there still a (slim) red booklet on Rights of a Soldier under Army Act 1955?

    I think the short version was that you didn't have any, but no doubt that has changed. You could ring Michael Mansfield?
     
  5. Mr_Fingerz

    Mr_Fingerz LE Book Reviewer

    Who, exactly has stated? your TC or the SSM? I doubt that the SSM can discharge you.
     
  6. Certainly when I was an Adjutant in 2002-3 "Rights of a Soldier" was issued. I was glad I didn't have to give that many out.

    However from what's said above it appears that Administrative Action under AGAIs is being considered. AFAIK that would allow for discharge without any Army Act (or is it Armed Forces Discipline Act these days - must ask Brother-in-Law who was an SO2 setting it up from the RN perspective) just as it can be used for fitness test failures & the like.
     
  7. AGAI67 para18.c(3) - Misconduct: "Conviction by a Court" - this can lead to "Major Administrative Action" (p34.a). One of the Major sanctions is (p33.h) "Termination of Service". If you look at Appendix 1 to Annex D, any decision to throw you out must be taken at 1* level (I think this is normally the relevant Regional Brigade but can be any superior to your CO depending on which bit of Queen's Regs is the appropriate one for your case.)

    You will get an Assisting Officer and a Formal Interview (Annex D, p16) before the report is made to the Deciding Officer. You get a copy of the AGAI (because it is AGAI rather than AFA06 action) rather than the AFA06 equivalent of "Rights of a Soldier".

    You also have the right to an interview with the Deciding Officer (Annex D, p18) before he makes his mind up and, in almost all cases, to hear his finding (Annex D, p22). You can also request a review of the sanction by the Deciding Officer's Higher Authority (Annex D, p27 - 31) and, even, put in a Service Complaint.

    So it is not so simple as "found guilty" therefore "kicked out" although the latter is a possible consequence, regardless of the penalty imposed by the court (it is the seriousness of the offence and its relevance under the Service Test that is key.)
     
  8. Thank you Idrach your knowledge is very detailed.

    A very big thank you to Cuddles and jeepster. Your words are wise, i think cuddles you really do study your interests very well with that word for word extract from the bible itself.

    I now actually have hope. During these interviews with the CO and Superiors, would a military solicitor be able to give me advice or a military lawyer. But to be fair it does seem like the CO can do what he likes to you.

    Have your actions or behaviour badly
    affected, or are they likely to affect the
    operational effectiveness of your unit.

    i could understand if i got given comunnity service then yes i have failed the service test therefore Army Act could come into it. But it is just a simple fine, and i have been treatened with discharge if i am found Guilty.
     
  9. Nope - a lawyer won't particularly help (and isn't allowed to be present). You're not in front of the CO as a summary trial (if you are in front of the CO be a happy bunny 'cause he ain't senior enough to have you canned!), you're in front of Brigadier Righteously-Furious 'cause you've been found (or plead) guilty in court. All your defence and mitigation should have been done as a civvie. You do get, as I said before, an Assisting Officer. I've not done that for a long, long time, and in my day you weren't allowed to do that much. Still, they should be able to help you present your p.o.v. and marshal any mitigating factors. On the other hand, if you're a BAFF member, you may want to talk to them ...

    The CO cannot do "what he likes" - he has fairly detailed instructions as to precedent and totally detailed ones as to process. His decision must, employment law - this is not him acting as a court - be consistent with those taken by the Services generally, hence his access to detailed guidance on appropriate outcomes.

    Err, duh. You have, hypothetically, been found guilty in a criminal court. Of course your actions have affected, and I note you excluded it from your quote, the efficiency of the Army. Forget the Army Act 1955 - it's been replaced by the Armed Forces Act 2006 anyway - this is purely administrative. "Consequential Service Penalties" they used to be called - it's not that anymore.

    You say you have been threatened with discharge - threats are not reality. Discharge, SNLR or similar, is a possibility after a criminal conviction. To be utterly honest, the internet is not the place for the sort of details that would allow anyone to make a realistic judgement on your actual position. Go and talk to BAFF, or Welfare, or your Padre - somebody who you can discuss the minutiae of the situation with and can give you unbiased advice.
     
  10. It's easier said than done...but...try not to worry about discharge just yet!! The CO will take many things into consideration when decided what sanction he/she is going to give. These include your service record, your recent performance, how you're seen within the regiment and if you are remorseful etc etc.

    At the end of the day you F**ked up mate! If you've admitted it from the start and are willing to take it on the chin, seen as a canny lad doing a good job without too many prior f**k ups, promise not to do it again and are truly sorry for doing it; you may get away with a Major AGAI other than discharge.

    Bear in mind discharge is high up on the Major AGAI list, so dont presume anything until told formally what you are getting!!!

    Mind you, the times we are in at the moment anything is possble!
     
  11. criminal damage to a taxi headlight leading to your being threatened with discharge? methinks there is more to your history in the unit than meets the eye!!!
     
  12. Why isnt a solicitor not allowed to be present? That has to be the biggest miscarraige of justice ever. The services were allowed to have OC and CO orders as they were trusted to represent the magistrates court system. But the Army doing its own thing just rode roughsod over the rights of the soldier. Which is unfair. If it is to represent the magistrates court system then the accused must have legal representation. Not a snotty troop commander who will act in compliance with the CO. I have seen a solictor present at a CO orders. He adviced his client to push for Court Martial where the correct legal representation could be made. The CO had him wait in the corridor.

    The CO admonished the soldier from the charge realising that if the case made it to court martial he would have looked a complete idiot. The Army discipline system is inherently unfair always has and always will be. If you did get agaid and kicked out well you have grounds for unfair dismissal, but proving that would be a long drawn out and expensive affair. As for the AGAI system that is a complete travesty that needs reviewing, i had it used against myself by a civil servant, you cannot fight it.

    Though I think that if you have a clean record and have worked hard you shouldnt have anything to worry about. However if it turns out you are a scrote with a long history, sorry but I dont want to serve alongside you.
     
  13. That's what I wondered...
     
  14. My only experience of this was once when I was guard commander in Maidstone in the 70's. Someone reported that a bloke was being picked on in one of the four man accom rooms. I nipped down there to find a bloke in tears threatening 2 other blokes with a broom handle. I asked wtf was going in and the bloke with the broom handle told me to **** off or I'd "get it as well". Since he wasn't disposed to discuss matters amicably, I disarmed him, nicked him and had him on orders first thing in the morning. He pleaded guilty to threatening behaviour and failing to comply etc. He must have had previous because after being asked by the OC what his story was and being unable to produce a good story the OC found him guilty and I was a bit gobsmacked to hear the OC say something like "... and discharged from the army with immediate effect". March him out sarntmajor!
     
  15. Blatant statements from people not in the Army, for example "why isnt a solicitor allowed in an interview without coffee with headshed?" because its the fecking Army not a boob-grab sexual harrasment charge at the office.

    Mate despite the fact that right now as you probably already know for your position in the military there are probably two or three shiney joebags to take your place that wont cause dramas for the headshed however this sounds very much like big-time talk and threats from your immediate superior, someone very much in love with his rank that believes he can make the world turn simply by the flash of a few stripes.

    However, as was pointed out above its unusual even for someone to threaten such sanctions if this was one of your first offenses? if you have dropped yourself in the poop before or have a reputation as a drama-case or substandard soldier then im afraid you've shat in your own mess tin there as you have simply given them the ammunition they were looking for to hoof you out.