DII and EDS, handbags at dawn?

Discussion in 'Royal Signals' started by Baldrick66, Mar 24, 2006.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Seems the relationship between EDS and the MOD is starting to turn a little sour


    Anyone want to wager that this amazing, wonderful, value for money project is starting to come unglued? More to the point should we cave in to EDS and pay them more of our tax money for a system that has yet to be shown to work anywhere out side of Corsham and a delivery date that has already slipped by more than a year?

    Thoughts anyone?
  2. I worked on one of the competing bids for this... Its a massive contract, both in terms of commercial and technical complexity, so, whilst I'm loathe to offer EDS excuses, in my opinion the real blame lies with the MOD, as well as the people who advised them on the procurement. They are tendering for contracts that they themselves can't manage, with technical risks and significant commercial liabilities falling on contractors who should know better than to bid for work that can't be delivered.

    If you want to see what the end result is - look at the NHS "connecting for health projects". 2 years + in - and they are haemorraging money without really delivering...
  3. Again, i'm loathe to stick up for EDS but having read the article the problem seems to be MOD changes in programme deliverables. Nothing new there then. I've worked on the project and Atlas/EDS seem to be employing some really good people, and forcing them to work like idiots. That being said, if the MOD are changing their minds about their expectations for DII i'm not surprised that EDS are worried.

    Interesting point in the article about management of change. Within our environment, the major concern of staff has been the impact of change and getting any answers to alieviate fears is next to impossible. Too big a project, too quickly and badly managed by both the MOD and Atlas IMHO.
  4. Should have given the job to BT. BT's own system has over 80,000 linked and secure terminals including over 30,000 RAS laptops. Whilst I'm not saying its perfect it works and is upgraded 24/7.

    Not only that, I'm sure BT didnt spend £4 billion on it either. Having seen the standard of DII instalations I'm sure the average BT engineer could have done just as well too. Moving on from there are we getting VOIP phones etc with DII?
  5. They should have got a clue when EDS lost the Inland Revenue contract, that not all is right within EDS..
  6. Nope. I asked the same question to our local DII project manager - he asked me why i want one. I didnt persue it
  7. Funny enough I mentioned that to an Estate Manager the other day................... All i got was a funny look, a mumbled 'Security Issue' followed by 'How about getting the system installed first' So at a guess I'd call it a no in the short term.
  8. And the MoD is about to announce its own version (DMICP), 'connecting for health' had the NHS jump in with both feet and ignore existing providers, who in reality are keeping the project afloat. Like most things it centered around loads of project managers (non technical officers) who didn't know what they were talking about and spent most of the time ring fencing their organisations from blame.

    As for WhiteHorses comments about BT, my recent dealings would indicate its 'good to talk', we've spent so much time trying them to talk to each other. I work with an ex-BT guy who has sort of followed the RSigs Supervisor stream, he's a great guy to work with, maybe industry should look in on the corps model for technical people.
  9. Whitehorse - I don't think that giving the contract to any other provider would make much difference. The reason that EDS are in such (very public) trouble with large scale outsourcing contracts is that they have greater exposure - they got into the game ahead of everyone else. The contracts are just too big and can't really be controlled without top-class management. The management are too busy with other things (you can judge for yourself whether these are important - in the case of the MOD, I can understand that they might be a bit preoccupied with matters in Iraq.).

    What the whole government procurement process should offer is a process that offers smaller chunks of contracts from the beginning, with more output-based specification. And they will have to be prepared to pay for it. Industry is getting hacked off with the bad press from these contracts going wrong, and some of the high-quality players (CapGemini, IBM, Accenture) are getting very nervous about staying in Government work. IBM didn't bid for the health work - why do you think that is..?

    WhiteHorse, I know BT and their service provision side (BT Global Services) very well - I worked there for 3 years. They are learning, but have as many if not more faults than EDS. They run the Defence Fixed Telephony Service, and run it very well - but is it any surprise that BT can run a telephone service? If they had to run DII, they'd be making as bad a job of it as EDS. If you want an example, look at the N3 Broadband project, the London CFH cluster, and the SPINE project on the NHS.
  10. EDS gets slated for every single big job that it does. Like in boxing, you're only as good as your last fight, and surely when every job is a disaster that has to be taken as a strong hint! I work in a unit which uses an IT system heavily controlled by EDS and they have made an absolute dog's dinner of it. Imagine an adhoc network that keeps growing in size, each bolt-on at a different build state, hybrid operating systems for totally fanciful 'security' reasons and a tiny team of people (try counting on one finger) who know it intimately. What a bl00dy disaster. Er...no prizes for guessing the name of this anonymous system.

    They screw up the employment service, inland revenue, NHS etc etc....so what do we do? Book EDS for our next system! WTF?
  11. IMHO the majopr problem is corruption in the uk defence industry and no matter if all your dealings are far above board these companies get tarred with the same brush so no matter what the problem someone always looks at that as the reason.

    The marconi collapse is good example of the problem in the uk industry
  12. Ah the company that recently resold the RLI IGS service back to the DMS. Blimey GP3Bunny has replied to this thread :lol:
    To be fair to those NHS companies it was may a mistake for many of them to base themselves in the same neck of the woods, have you seen the number of IT jobs is West Yorkshire, most are struggling to get people with medical informatics experience.

    They have bid for MOD Health Programe, they or LogicaCMG the likely winners of the contract
  13. How big is MOD health? I'd be surprised if either LogicaCMG or IBM would win without big support from a healthcare provider - there surely can't be that many skilled healthcare people left after the NHS programmes have hoovered them all up...

    "Like in boxing, you're only as good as your last fight, and surely when every job is a disaster that has to be taken as a strong hint!" - fair point. But its not like any of the companies out there are doing a great job on any of the mega contracts is it?

    Some of you guys are at the coalface on DII, DFTS etc - who is good to work with? If you were making the decisions, who would you give the work to?
  14. God bless all these hugely complicated projects that go Pete Tong. At least it keeps lots of ex-squaddies in work when they leave!

    Result! :D