Digital DPM Combats

#1
Does anyone know if the UK are going to introduce a digital DPM combat uniform?
 
#4
I say why bother. British DPM is almost an institution. I've not seen any evidence that shows our DPM is being deficient. Is it just a fad? It's a conspiracy by Jay-Jay's and Troopers! If we get new DPM then we'll have to get all our new kit tailored as well! They'll be brazillionaires!

T C
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#5
I have seen better than Brit. Many many years ago I was fcking about with some US Rangers in their (now old) Woodland pattern in Wales and their cam worked, to my nationalistic disappointment, better than our DPM..

I hoped that ours worked better in central Germany.

That said, I am unconvinced that ours can be significantly improved with current technology.. maybe a 5 or 10% increase (I would put woodland as about 20% better) in that situation and at that time.
 
#6
Was this thread done before? That story sounds familiar!

Is there not some mind trickery involved with this as well. Our brains become accustomed to picking out DPM or some bollocks?

Just thinking now, is there a market for a decent urban DPM? Dessert DPM seems ok in Iraq but what about a non desert urban area? I saw that the RM snipers in Bosnia made their own urban ghillie suits that were all blue and grey and looked quite good.

T C
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#7
The best urban cam I ever saw was in the Phillipines during the revolution. 2 x Sherman tanks driving up the main drag in urban cam (same or similar to our Berlin urban cam).

They were quite clear with the road as a backdrop but as they approached the crest of a hill (with Manila as the backdrop) they basically disappeared.

Very impressive.

Apart from ASAT the only urban cam I remember seeing was these guy's:



ASAT (all season all terrain) was the 80's name for what the US army has now gone for. Though I dare say their consultants have a cooler (All Amerinca) name for it.
 
#8
Its being looked at as part of PECOC. ITDU were doing some initial troop trials today with some new potential colours. Its not drastically different as the stuff we have is not that bad. Seems like we will stick to two cams, desert and woodland, but modify the visual colours a bit but make the serious advances on the IRR dyes.

The yank colours were also being looked at, its an 'average' of the different environments which means that it does not work anywhere it seems. Yanks are complaining and its days maybe numbered. Digitisation is also a hot topic. Not because its any good but because PECOC needs to collect enough evidence to disprove those who like it because they think its the 'future'.

Urban cam is being looked at by Dstl as part of the NATO urban cam study. This stuff is seriously barking mad with colours and pattern that only a scientist could love. The last time I went an update briefing the boffins had spent months forming the conclusion that dark suits work well on a dark background but seem to fail when placed against a light one!
Ahh the benefits of a University education.
 
#12
The old Swiss pattern with the red in it is great at breaking up outline, but at less than about 20 yards it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I used to have a walty picture of me wearing it on the Internet somewhere, but I can't find it...
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#13
FWIW:

kitmonster said:
Its being looked at as part of PECOC. ITDU were doing some initial troop trials today with some new potential colours. Its not drastically different as the stuff we have is not that bad.
Agreed

Seems like we will stick to two cams, desert and woodland,
Good

but modify the visual colours a bit but make the serious advances on the IRR dyes.
Good

The yank colours were also being looked at, its an 'average' of the different environments which means that it does not work anywhere it seems. Yanks are complaining and its days maybe numbered.
3rd or 4th set in ten years? Is the issue with the USMC or Army or both? Bearing in mind they're slightly different cams.

Digitisation is also a hot topic. Not because its any good but because PECOC needs to collect enough evidence to disprove those who like it because they think its the 'future'.
It struck me as a no-advantage style and I wondered why it existed. At more than 3m the digi effect (5mm squares) dissapear so why have it at all?

Urban cam is being looked at by Dstl as part of the NATO urban cam study. This stuff is seriously barking mad with colours and pattern that only a scientist could love.
Good news for designated roles / locations etc. Do we have to wear it in buildings and change to go outside!?!

The last time I went an update briefing the boffins had spent months forming the conclusion that dark suits work well on a dark background but seem to fail when placed against a light one!
Ahh the benefits of a University education.
Did you suggest reversable gear like the 80's yank night/day pattern?
 
#15
Urban cam is an interesting one, I think the US experimented with it:
http://www.worldcamo.com/images/usmc-3m.jpg
Lots of big grey areas and straight lines which is a good idea, perhaps they should've put the occasional dull-red-brick bits in.

I suppose the greatest urban cam is the new American 'ACU' though, when I first saw a pic of it I thought are they planning to do ALL their fighting in cities in future then? I've not seen it in use but from photos I can't believe they're trogging round deserts in that stuff.

The whole idea of urban cam is a bit odd though, I mean how would you introduce it? Is there even a need to introduce it? You could make up a set of flame-retardent coveralls in urban cam and try to change before FIBUA, but why bother, would it help much, especially with so much other DPM kit around... You're more likely to survive from not leaning out of windows and using smoke than wearing a new uniform, so why worry about it?
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#16
Gook said:
The whole idea of urban cam is a bit odd though, I mean how would you introduce it? Is there even a need to introduce it? You could make up a set of flame-retardent coveralls in urban cam and try to change before FIBUA, but why bother, would it help much, especially with so much other DPM kit around... You're more likely to survive from not leaning out of windows and using smoke than wearing a new uniform, so why worry about it?
I can see the advantage in two specific areas.

1. Where your area of Operations is predominantly urban, e.g. Those troops that live in London or at the Palaces. Or for soldiers based in Baghdad.

2. For Ops were the city is the LOE. Like Falluja.

Lastly, it should be remembered that urban locations don't always look like this:



Sometimes they look like this:




with lots of rubble to play with, which makes cam FAR MORE effective..
 
#17
Hmm good call... I just thought that you may have to switch from an urban to a rural setting at short notice, and even in a city, engagements are going to take place at close range and with a lot of other kit (probably still green) all around your body.

Do you think the US was getting at urban environments when it introduced its new uniform?

It doesn't appear to work anywhere else, so is that a commentary on the US expecting to have to do the bulk of its fighting in cities in future (after all, the Iraqi desert didnt appear to be the problem, it was the cities and COIN that is), or is it that they got the dyes wrong for their new uniform that was meant to be used in rural settings too?
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#19
I'm not that qualified to answer all of those questions, but this being arrse....

Gook said:
Hmm good call... I just thought that you may have to switch from an urban to a rural setting at short notice, and even in a city, engagements are going to take place at close range and with a lot of other kit (probably still green) all around your body.
Agreed bit FIBUA isn'y just room clearence, its also got to do with engaging a guy 300m down the road and FIBUA, rather like Tanking, a lot of it is down to spotting, aiming and shooting the bad guy first. Remember that another plus from camo is fooling the enemy into your distance, direction of movement and speed (think WW1 ship cam but its the same for boots on the ground, the aim is to prevent the bad guy identifying how hard your arms are pumping as you run across the ground so he can't get a decent shot).

Do you think the US was getting at urban environments when it introduced its new uniform?
Give the US tactic of not getting out of its vehicles anywhere else I can't help but feel this is smart move.

It doesn't appear to work anywhere else, so is that a commentary on the US expecting to have to do the bulk of its fighting in cities in future (after all, the Iraqi desert didnt appear to be the problem, it was the cities and COIN that is), or is it that they got the dyes wrong for their new uniform that was meant to be used in rural settings too?
I'm leaning towards manufacturin quality, squiffy tests* and all the other corruption that exists in the states. Otherwise why would they end up with a light green pattern that looks a lot like white when added to dust?



* Like they tested it in arizona and it worked but not in Iraq. Rather like the old Chocolate Chip pattern from the 80's
 
#20
kitmonster said:
The last time I went an update briefing the boffins had spent months forming the conclusion that dark suits work well on a dark background..
Unless you make a faux pas by wearing brown footwear, in which case you'll stick out like a sore thumb.

Sorry, my mistake. Thought I'd blundered into the Dapper Clothing thread again.
 

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