Did the army consider using German equipment?

[Ryder02]

Just asked the missus, she say a mule is an equid and therefore that counts.

I believe it was in the seventies that a survey revealed several million mule shoes in heated storage at an R.A.OC depot even though the last mules had left the army donkeys years before.

I seem to recall a piece in (IIRC) the BAR not all that long ago from a staff officer who had (amongst other things) the duty for maintaining doctrine about use of mules. Quite interesting!

The last mule troop didn’t leave U.K. service until 1975 apparently (I was searching for confirmation of the BAR story).

ETA: Par_Avion best me to the HK bit.

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[offog]

Read the last paragraph pf my post.

" it was also difficult to do when lying in a prone position, as was often the case when using the weapon in action".[21] "

Only if you are incompetent. Lay on your back, put your feet on the shoulder pad and push. Not that difficult. Much of the initial part of the wiki page is bollocks probably copying ill informed writing of others.

 

[Themanwho]

With my storeman's head on I'd point out a bit of a difficulty with that line of supply:

They'd have the rounds but the MG ammo is in belts. Taking the rounds out and sourcing clips for them would've been a major nause.. Bloke on the range shows that the Garand can be topped up but doing that in action would negate any advantage over the No 4

As they kept the M1 through the war they'd have needed a supply of armourer's spares. I'd have guessed they organised ammo supply in clips and bandoliers at the same time.

What has to be remembered is the ridiculously mahoosive logistic advantage enjoyed by the Allies in Europe. They could provide absolutely anything to anyone (apart from fuel in late 44 obvs), so sourcing a bit of kit & replen for specialist units (commandos etc) was a relative doddle. Massive complexity of delivery was countered with even more massive availability of equipment and an extremely effective logistic organisation.

 

[syrup]

PIAT In British hands accounted for 6% of German armour kills, and could defeat any German tank, not bad for a ‘useless’ weapon.
It was also found to be very effective in urban fighting, taking out machine guns, dug outs, mouseholing external and internal (don’t try that with a Bazooka) walls.
it was good enough, you don‘t find much evidence of disgruntled Tommys widely discarding it and using Panzerfaust pickups instead.

Wagger Thornaton at Pegasus Bridge and Major Cain V.C. at Arnhem both used it to great effect nocking a number of panzers out.

 

[syrup]

The problem with the much vaunted Pazershreck was not only was it dangerous to tanks, it was dangerous to the operator and anyone near it from the blast, which along with the smoke, which let everyone know where you were and meant you couldn't fire it from cover

The much derided PIAT was pretty effective - the Canadians certainly thought it very effective.

Hence the well known German phrase later adapted by British forces
" I bet she bangs like a belt fed Panzershreck".

 

[JackSofty]

Have you seen the size of the average Maori lady?

Whole Lotta Rosie?


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[Red Hander]

Not us but a variety of post-war uses - including by Rhodesia - for this German aircraft cannon, later a ground-based AA, and helicopter-based gun. The French also used this cannon as armament for their riverine craft in Vietnam:

MG 151 cannon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gluteus Maximus]

The last British unit to use mules was disbanded in the early Seventies in Hong Kong

414 Pack Troop, mules were used in the New Territories until after 28 Squadron at Kai Tak converted from Hunters to Whirlwinds in 1968. I've seen a marvellous photo somewhere of kit being unloaded from a Whirlwind onto a couple of mokes.

 

[Themanwho]

When on loan service in Sierra Leone 2001-2, the RSLAF Loggie depot was found to contain three MG34s - no ammo, STTE or spares, and quietly rusting away. I have no idea how long they'd been there, the oldest available storeman said "Long time Sah", which could have meant anything from last week to 1943.

With the cooperation of a REME Lt Col I managed to get all three onto a Herc, with one going to the REME Small Arms collection, and the other two being deac'd as wall hangers for the Arborfield Officers' & WO & Sgts' Messes.

 

[Goldbricker]

Not really odd. There was a lot of excitement about the T1 Bazooka, and a copy was rushed over for demonstration and trials. It was judged to be of poor construction, unlikely to withstand the rigours of field use, dangerous as there was a high risk of prematures and unable to be used from a prone position.

Equally in the day's firing with it, not one round scored a hit on the armour plate so there was no way to judge its armour defeating ability.

TM9-294 27 September 1943 edition says otherwise, and would be news to every single Bazooka team member in WW2 and Korea....


Still from TF 11-1166

Not hitting sounds like flinching from the rocket motor next to your ear, common with untrained operators even today with a Law and AT4

 

[Goldbricker]

Good Job they've got safety hats on,imagine if that thing fell down.

Well, a Barnacle could fall off

 

[Listy]

TM9-294 27 September 1943 edition says otherwise, and would be news to every single Bazooka team member in WW2 and Korea....

Just reporting the British view of the first weapons provided.

 

[Goldbricker]

The Commandos used whatever took their fancy.
They were also very fond of the M1 Carbine and much preferred the Thompson to the STEN

Some must have been, since the UK got 25,362 and Canada 230 via LL of the M1 and IIRC some infantry regiment in Burma acquired them for Officers and NCO's during 1944 (along with US M1938 Dismounted leggings for some odd reason)

 

[Goldbricker]

What has to be remembered is the ridiculously mahoosive logistic advantage enjoyed by the Allies in Europe. They could provide absolutely anything to anyone (apart from fuel in late 44 obvs), so sourcing a bit of kit & replen for specialist units (commandos etc) was a relative doddle. Massive complexity of delivery was countered with even more massive availability of equipment and an extremely effective logistic organisation.

Indeed but we were referencing the Garands use in Burma by the Cdo.

 

[Themanwho]

Some must have been, since the UK got 25,362 and Canada 230 via LL of the M1 and IIRC some infantry regiment in Burma acquired them for Officers and NCO's during 1944 (along with US M1938 Dismounted leggings for some odd reason)

What's not to like? Very light, fairly reliable, semi auto, effective range of up to 200m on a good day, and more stopping power than a .357 Magnum. The RUC were still using them as late as 1988, (replaced with Mini14, IIRC).

I am absolutely gutted that I cannot own and shoot one of these fine firearms in the UK (and don't anyone start up about getting a straight pull version, that would be like having half a **** wearing a copper plate condom and a welders glove - deeply unsatisfying and ultimately pointless).

 

[Bodenplatte]

Joanna Lumley's dad toting an M1 Carbine at Mogaung June 1944

 

[Themanwho]

Indeed but we were referencing the Garands use in Burma by the Cdo.

Oops, hold on - I can argue my way out of this....

As Merrill's Marauders and similar American units in Burma were being supported logistically via India (mainly over the Himalayan "hump" to China, but still the stores must have been transported through India) it could have been relatively easy to allocate sufficient weapons, ammunition, spares, STTE etc for use by British forces and simply increase the logistic requirement.

Of course there was a very effective logistic organisation already in place in India which allied with the vast industrial production of the USA would have effectively distributed anything from pack mule harnesses to WACO gliders to M1 Garands, anyhwere in their AOR.

How was that? You can hardly see the join...

 

[Themanwho]

Joanna Lumley's dad toting an M1 Carbine at Mogaung June 1944

View attachment 492984

Good to see Mad Mike Calvert held on to his SMLE whilst exercising Command Indication.

 

[Bodenplatte]

Oops, hold on - I can argue my way out of this....

As Merrill's Marauders and similar American units in Burma were being supported logistically via India (mainly over the Himalayan "hump" to China, but still the stores must have been transported through India) it could have been relatively easy to allocate sufficient weapons, ammunition, spares, STTE etc for use by British forces and simply increase the logistic requirement.

Of course there was a very effective logistic organisation already in place in India which allied with the vast industrial production of the USA would have effectively distributed anything from pack mule harnesses to WACO gliders to M1 Garands, anyhwere in their AOR.

How was that? You can hardly see the join...

Good to see Mad Mike Calvert held on to his SMLE whilst exercising Command Indication.

And a Lt Colonel with his P1907 bayonet fixed - Freddie Shaw, 3/6GR

 

[putteesinmyhands]

And a Lt Colonel with his P1907 bayonet fixed - Freddie Shaw, 3/6GR

Just as well - none of them appear to be carrying any ammo.