Did Junior Leaders produce better soldiers than depots?

#1
I, like many old boys here did my year (or in some cases alot more) in brats. Once I'd passed out and joined my regt depot at Buller Barracks, Aldershot I began to see just how poorly they compared to their younger bretheren. We were fitter, had better mil skills and were better prepared for joining their working units. The 11 week wonders (or was it 9?) didn't like us much, but we were usually promoted before them and the large majority of SNCO's and RSM's were ex-brats. Does anybody feel that the old Junior Leaders regts produced better soldiers or do the people who took the quick option think they were trained the best?
 
#2
Whilst i can understand your arguement, me being a 10 week wonderand all.
I tend to think that whilst a lot of juniors come out into real army do seem switched on there are also others who are still thick as mince. But that being said the 10 week wonders still had a long way to catch up about what the forces was all about.
It is true a lot more juniors make promotion earlier than there counter parts and they do seem to stay in general a lot longer in the forces.
The only things that the juniors lack is experience in the civvy world as an adult. So in answer to your question i feel the juniors are more indoctrinated into the forces that gives tem a head start and they dont really know about the civvy life side of things, which is just a minor failing. Where as the 10 week wonders lack full knowledge of the forces,(at least in the first year anyway) but do have a bit more life experience before they join.
 
#3
Yes and no. Many of the older lads who just went through the depots were more mature, had experience of other jobs and adult civvy life. Juniors came right from school.
 
#4
Can't speak for Junior Leaders, but as a Junior that spent my whole time in the Regt Depot I would say that the year spent there before R-Coy made me a far better soldier. On joining R-Coy we got some hassle from the staff, who disliked the sudden influx of new bods into their sections, and one or two recruits who thought that on joining the Plt at an advanced stage we had somehow got an easy ride they seemed to forget that we had spent a year there already.

Buller Bks, that was the RCT Depot up the road from memory.......sent a few of our cast offs in that direction I recall :wink:
 
#5
Personally going through brats just increased the level of brainwashing (sorry, 'indoctrination'!). As has been well pointed out, going into the army at 16 with no experience of working in civvy street (apart from a paper round!), is a distinct advantage to the training process. Does bugger all for you when you leave of course....talk about feeling like a fish out of water!!!

So some pro's, some con's. At some point we all have to get a real job and blend in with civ div, so i think from my own experience i think joining later is a better call, get some life experience first - then you'll realise exactly what you're missing when you're stagging on at 2 in the morning freezing your nads off!!
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#6
I have found Brats gave us a better foundation than the 12 week recruit. The majority of SNCO's and Warrant Officers came from the Juniors ranks and the Officers, LE's, came from Juniors. But that's not say recruits don't have similar success.
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#7
You can usually spot an ex brat by the shape of their beret. It has that shaved, moulded, starched, stapled, sewn and hairsprayed look of being two sizes too small with the badge just behind their left ear......or is that an ex-cadet? :D
 
#8
Brat's or Bratus Apprentie!!! the dogs gonads!!! we started with an intake of 72. By the time we got to pass out almost 2 years later there were 18 of us. Weeded out the crap and left with the cream. Which is what is not happening today unfortunately!!!! We left brats with Class 2 trade, JMQC and EPC, I was a class 1 at 19yrs old. Yes apprentices and juniors produce good soldiers who in the most part go on to be seniors and officers given the chance. The 5 commisions a year tends to cock that up a bit but they stay the course and do it well.
Bring them back and get some more of the youth in to the system!!!!!!!
Either that or bring back conscription!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#9
What happened to you then DD, got in under the radar or did you enjoy all thos reggie baths! But then again Martin-Leake house was full of ponces! :wink:
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#11
maninblack said:
The entire Brat College was full of ponces... :twisted:

I never did work out what they did with them all day.
They made them better soldiers than the 12 week chuck outs that took another year to sort their $hite out.
 
#12
maninblack said:
The entire Brat College was full of ponces... :twisted:

I never did work out what they did with them all day.
They gave them an edchukation silly!! The simple answer is we put up with 100 times more crap than out 11 week wonder counterparts, were (for the corps troops) trained to a far higher standard than depot recruits on a larger variety of weapons. By the end of a years training we were superbly fit with a greater idea of what the army was about due to the aformention education (I had my EPC certs at 18 years old!!). For us passing out wasn't just a formality, it was earnt over a year of pain and hardship. My troop started with 45, 18 passed out the following year, and from them only 16 made it to working units. With the old junior leaders regts it was much harder for weak links to make it out of training. Anyone with character flaws or poor team skills never made it to the 6 month point. When I passed out and went to depot prior to trade training I was shocked at how poorly disiplined adult recruits were.
 
#13
Massively disagree with some on this

I found ex-brats were too immature and full of themselves whlist depot bods semmed mre clued up to life, however I would point out that there were probably more wasters to the pound than an average brat intake.

Thing with brats was they spent too long at it, 2 years then they had to start again and was far too much for some and arrogances came to play.

I know there is the feeling that ex-brats had longer and more sucessful careers, but I reallly didn't see that, in my experience I found the opposite to be true, I can only think of a few brats still in from my time, one I know is a Sgt, but he joined before 2 others from depot I know who are Staffy and WO2 a piece

Maybe its a corps thing ??
 
#14
Thing with brats was they spent too long at it, 2 years then they had to start again and was far too much for some and arrogances came to play.
Of course they’re what you assume to be arrogant. They have put up with training that would have made you cry and saw it out until the end. Unless you are ex JLR it will be hard for you to imagine a whole year of basic and advanced training, even before going onto trade training They are highly trained and superbly fit. I think you are mistaking arrogance with confidence.
 
#15
i know in the mid '80's in the Engineers , any pretence of arrogance was beasted out of you at 3TRRE where you went , generally the same day you passed out to do your B3 combat engineer training.

the rule of thumb there was anyone who even looked like being gobby got severely "adjusted".

ask any ex RE junior leader , come term 4 all the talk was about Gib barracks , and the horror stories that went with it. ..... the place was a f*cking beasting from start to finish.

i was scared to talk to anyone with a tape when i got to my unit , in case i found myself involved in an impromptu "PT session for one".

never did me any harm ....... according to my shrink.
 
#16
No arrogance, thing I saw was many brought their tapes with them, so to speak.

The whole concept of them being superbly trained was pap as well, they group I saw didn't do trade training as such, they did infantry which is nice, but doesn't help you in the garage.

Thing is I saw a lot of dross come from brats, as I said its possibly a corps thing, a lot of them did 3 years and buggered off and moaned the whole time in. One time I knew someone who was so full of himself that he wanted re-badging to the Infantry, caused merry hell over it. Eventually he got his wish and went to the RRF, less than a year later he was out, couldn't take it, last seen on MPS at Porton Down.

I'm not knocking brats but to write off depot because you think that brats is better because they spent so long at training is a mistake

but again, maybe it was my unit ?!? :?
 
#17
Now! Now! Ventress lets not get bitchy!!!!

I made Sub Sgt at 25, but had to wait till I was 31 for my Ssgt. No harm done, I still enjoyed Brats and still think that the Army has made yet another big mistake in not continuing to have them. Especially the RAMC who since options for change has constantly had a problem bringing enough in to the CMT trade.

As for there idear on only commisioning 5 per year from the ranks, now that is strupid!!! and believe it or not was one of the main reasons I PVR'd.

D.D. :evil:
 
#18
shortfuse said:
i know in the mid '80's in the Engineers , any pretence of arrogance was beasted out of you at 3TRRE where you went , generally the same day you passed out to do your B3 combat engineer training.

the rule of thumb there was anyone who even looked like being gobby got severely "adjusted".

ask any ex RE junior leader , come term 4 all the talk was about Gib barracks , and the horror stories that went with it. ..... the place was a f*cking beasting from start to finish.

i was scared to talk to anyone with a tape when i got to my unit , in case i found myself involved in an impromptu "PT session for one".

never did me any harm ....... according to my shrink.
I'll second that emotion, after two years at Chepstow - things started to calm down - only for all hell to errupt at Gib Barracks - I still fondly remember those Oh so much fun games of 'It pays to be a winner'.

TTFN

BFG
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#19
I was a Shornecliffe boy in 81 IJLB and we were better trained than the ordinary junior soldiers at the depot let alone the 24 week adult entrants. It was all down to having enough time to learn it all properly and still have normal outside activities and hobbies such as RSMs cross country on a saturday after his parade. Tug of war was great though, I wish I'd kept it up. When we passed out under a Scots gaurds RSM we were sent to Peninsular Bks in Winchester as Shrewsbury had just gone to junior only. The Depot RSM was very fair and new he had a struggle on his hands with drill conversion as RGJ drill is different again in commands from LI drill let alone Normal Heavy. He was smiling with us mixed up with the hangers on from rifle depot as they were a bit jaded and expected to have an easy time prior to unit postings and we were keen as mustard by comparisom. Height of the knee etc. I enjoyed junior continuation and was deployed to my Bn as one of the oldest before the crap jobs of demo pln and trained soldier had to be filled. It meant I got a head start and while my drill always has and will be poor, sorry RSM (Get that clown out of Corunna!) I know I didnt fill my potential and why. I enjoyed it too much and when TOETs came up I passed all as skilled something even the class 1 Inf and JNCOs couldt do. I was used by the J Ncos for working on their education homework for EPC as I had done it all before but Bn told me mine didnt count. Why bother was my thought so after 7 years I grew up and got a proper job. I miss the odd mate not enough to move in with them but I see the odd one or two (and yes they are odd) occaissionally.
 
#20
In my Corps the ex-brats got to their class 1 course quicker than the chunkies. They were given preferential loading onto any course going. I suppose it was some sort of payback for all the sh1te they went through for 2 years!

Arrogance? I thought it was, but on reflection most ex-brats came into the "mans" army expecting to be promoted, get courses etc, so it may be they were lead to believe they would be succesful in everything they wanted to do/get. Not necessarily a bad thing IMO.

As for them staying in longer etc, I've met many more succesful chunkies than ex-brats and Ive been around for 25 years!

Oh, and I joined at 17 and went straight into mans service!
 

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