Did any British Forces Serve In Vietnam?

A mate of mine who was ex navy talked about being parked up off SVN and watching the night sky being lit up by bombers and artillery.
 
early 66 lots of weird and wonderful people, all shapes and sizes and breeds passed through our hands in kota ttingi, dont recall any british I det though, 2 Intelligence Corps personnel from Tanglin came up to op crown on the 3rd of december 1965 to assist SIB in the James Box killing investigation,I was rtu,d to 5ghurka dog coy Ulu pandan , who seconded me to JWS kota ttingi for the last 6 weeks of my farelf tour.
 
The British Forces are represented in almost every US command world wide as are the Australian and Canadians which represents the special relationship held between the three nations. Now Trump may have destroyed the deep relationships but I am confident that the military ranks remain very close - even on the Military Staffs servicing the WH and Congress as exchange officers are everywhere. In the Vietnam days British soldiers, sailors and airmen were in and out of every command in some small capacity - as I knew aircrew who were on exchange tours with USMC and USN squadrons flying combat missions as often as everyone else - so the UK was always there and remains always there - thank God and thank the Queen
 
He most assuredly was not.

HCM was Comintern's main man in SEAsia.

If HCM was strictly a nationalist why is it that he set up the Thai Communist party?

Why was he arrested by the British in Hong Kong in 1931?

HCM was in the Soviet Union during the time of Stalin's purges, faced a troika and was lucky not to be executed

Hard core communist first, last and always.
You need to look a bit further back than that. Ho was at Versailles. He became disillusioned with the process, when he saw that Woodrow Wilson's 'self determination' only applied to whites. He saw communism as the next best solution for independence.

He also supported (and received support from) OSS in WWII. If that had continued things would have turned out differently; but the Brits - and then the US - backed France instead.

The irony was that the US saw communism as the issue, and thought that he was China's puppet (the 'Domino Theory'). Whereas in fact the Viets hate the Chinese (and briefly went to war with them in 1979)


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You need to look a bit further back than that. Ho was at Versailles. He became disillusioned with the process, when he saw that Woodrow Wilson's 'self determination' only applied to whites. He saw communism as the next best solution for independence.

He also supported (and received support from) OSS in WWII. If that had continued things would have turned out differently; but the Brits - and then the US - backed France instead.

The irony was that the US saw communism as the issue, and thought that he was China's puppet (the 'Domino Theory'). Whereas in fact the Viets hate the Chinese (and briefly went to war with them in 1979)


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Although during what was called by the VN, the American war, Ho may very well have been a communist, but most of the country was united to form one VN rather than North and South. I do not believe that too many of either the VC or the NVN troops were ardent communists. They wanted all foreigners out and the country to be run by the local population, which is fair.
There was, and still is, a large amount of corruption occurring, which to be fair, is rather endemic in that part of the world.
Any communist leanings that are still evident today are a very mild form, in my opinion.
 
Although during what was called by the VN, the American war, Ho may very well have been a communist, but most of the country was united to form one VN rather than North and South. I do not believe that too many of either the VC or the NVN troops were ardent communists. They wanted all foreigners out and the country to be run by the local population, which is fair.
There was, and still is, a large amount of corruption occurring, which to be fair, is rather endemic in that part of the world.
Any communist leanings that are still evident today are a very mild form, in my opinion.
And just to let you in on a secret..... the vast majority of the population in Vietnam couldn't give a flying fuck about communism. The alleged "socialist" government is simply a self elected single party political system. Corruption? They can teach corruption here at Phd level.
 
And just to let you in on a secret..... the vast majority of the population in Vietnam couldn't give a flying fuck about communism. The alleged "socialist" government is simply a self elected single party political system. Corruption? They can teach corruption here at Phd level.
I am afraid to disappoint you, you haven't let me into any secret at all.
 
You need to look a bit further back than that. Ho was at Versailles. He became disillusioned with the process, when he saw that Woodrow Wilson's 'self determination' only applied to whites. He saw communism as the next best solution for independence.

He also supported (and received support from) OSS in WWII. If that had continued things would have turned out differently; but the Brits - and then the US - backed France instead.

The irony was that the US saw communism as the issue, and thought that he was China's puppet (the 'Domino Theory'). Whereas in fact the Viets hate the Chinese (and briefly went to war with them in 1979)


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Hi Bob.

Ho was a communist, first, last and always.

If Ho was a nationalist he had no business establishing the Thai Communist party or indeed the Indochinese Communist party. An entity he quickly dissolved on seizing power in 1945 changing the name to reflect a newly invented nationalism.

Ho spent most of the Second world war either as an officer in Mao's Eighth Route Army or in a Chinese prison. An unusual occupation for a devout Nationalist.

HCM supported the US WW2 effort in only one significant way. The rescue and repatriation of the US pilot William Shaw, shot down over Cao Bang shortly before VE day in 1945.

Even though the French underground had successfully rescued dozens of US and Commonwealth pilots Ho, leveraged this singular assistance to attain political advantage for the clandestine Lao Dong party.

The OSS did indeed naively send a mission to assist Ho and Giap. However, 'Team Deer' was not fully assembled at Tran Tao when the war ended with the use of nuclear weapons on Japan in August 1945.

The US involvement with HCM's underground political movement was both fleeting and trivial.

You are absolutely correct when you state that HCM was never a Chinese puppet. Perhaps his most famous quote was “You fools! Don't you realize what it means if the Chinese remain? Don't you remember your history? The last time the Chinese came, they stayed a thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying. The white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never go. As for me, I prefer to sniff French shit for five years than to eat Chinese shit for the rest of my life.”

But that does not discredit the 'Domino Theory' at all.

Communist Hegemony in South East Asia was arrested by four main factors.

The first was the Indonesian pogrom of Chinese Communists (and Chinese generally) that occurred in 1965/66, that also effectively ended the UK's 'Confrontation'.

The second was the flawed and ultimately failed US intervention in South Vietnam that bought the time necessary to establish nascent democracies in the region.

The third, were the excesses committed by the Cambodian communists under Pol Pot when they came to power contemporaneously with the fall of Saigon in 1975.

The fourth was, as you correctly point out, the Sino-Vietnam War of 1979.

Up until then the Dominoes were definitely in danger of collapsing.

The communist insurgency in Thailand was not defeated until 1982.

The 'Second Emergency' in Malaysia was not resolved until 1989.

It was not until 1989 that the Communist threat in Burma was quashed.

The Domino Theory certainly articulated a plausible strategic outcome.

Ho Chi Minh was a founder of the French Communist Party.

He was the 'Third Internationals' main man in South East Asia he was also responsible for establishing the Communist parties in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. He assisted the establishment of the parties in Indonesia, Burma and Malaysia.

HCM was a devoted Communist who politically meddled in the affairs in nearly every Country in the region.

HCM's credentials as an anti colonial/Vietnamese nationalist were irredeemably dashed in 1928 when he established the Thai Communist party.

Thailand. The only country in the region never to be colonized by a Western Country.

Ho was a communist, first, last and always.
 
Hi Bob.

Ho was a communist, first, last and always.

If Ho was a nationalist he had no business establishing the Thai Communist party or indeed the Indochinese Communist party. An entity he quickly dissolved on seizing power in 1945 changing the name to reflect a newly invented nationalism.

Ho spent most of the Second world war either as an officer in Mao's Eighth Route Army or in a Chinese prison. An unusual occupation for a devout Nationalist.

HCM supported the US WW2 effort in only one significant way. The rescue and repatriation of the US pilot William Shaw, shot down over Cao Bang shortly before VE day in 1945.

Even though the French underground had successfully rescued dozens of US and Commonwealth pilots Ho, leveraged this singular assistance to attain political advantage for the clandestine Lao Dong party.

The OSS did indeed naively send a mission to assist Ho and Giap. However, 'Team Deer' was not fully assembled at Tran Tao when the war ended with the use of nuclear weapons on Japan in August 1945.

The US involvement with HCM's underground political movement was both fleeting and trivial.

You are absolutely correct when you state that HCM was never a Chinese puppet. Perhaps his most famous quote was “You fools! Don't you realize what it means if the Chinese remain? Don't you remember your history? The last time the Chinese came, they stayed a thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying. The white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never go. As for me, I prefer to sniff French shit for five years than to eat Chinese shit for the rest of my life.”

But that does not discredit the 'Domino Theory' at all.

Communist Hegemony in South East Asia was arrested by four main factors.

The first was the Indonesian pogrom of Chinese Communists (and Chinese generally) that occurred in 1965/66, that also effectively ended the UK's 'Confrontation'.

The second was the flawed and ultimately failed US intervention in South Vietnam that bought the time necessary to establish nascent democracies in the region.

The third, were the excesses committed by the Cambodian communists under Pol Pot when they came to power contemporaneously with the fall of Saigon in 1975.

The fourth was, as you correctly point out, the Sino-Vietnam War of 1979.

Up until then the Dominoes were definitely in danger of collapsing.

The communist insurgency in Thailand was not defeated until 1982.

The 'Second Emergency' in Malaysia was not resolved until 1989.

It was not until 1989 that the Communist threat in Burma was quashed.

The Domino Theory certainly articulated a plausible strategic outcome.

Ho Chi Minh was a founder of the French Communist Party.

He was the 'Third Internationals' main man in South East Asia he was also responsible for establishing the Communist parties in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. He assisted the establishment of the parties in Indonesia, Burma and Malaysia.

HCM was a devoted Communist who politically meddled in the affairs in nearly every Country in the region.

HCM's credentials as an anti colonial/Vietnamese nationalist were irredeemably dashed in 1928 when he established the Thai Communist party.

Thailand. The only country in the region never to be colonized by a Western Country.

Ho was a communist, first, last and always.
And a little known fact: Ho Chi Minh was a Freemason.
 
I am afraid that you have it very wrong - HO was a nationalist and as a Communist he used it to bring his kind of nationalism to a very rural and uneducated society. The US and allies had a chance to deal with HO but decided upon the bullshit domino theory that Vietnam was an instrument of China's hegemony quests and all HO wanted was to unite the Vietnam's and build a nation - we wasted 58,000 lives on that neocon set up that was started with the Tonkin Resolution reacting to supposed NV Attacks on US destroyers that in reality never happened and were deliberately fabricated by Johnson fearing the domino play. Now Vietnam has digested through all the war and they did take a great toll as you can see giant cemeteries all along the areas south of Vinh to Saigon in the size of those in France and Belgium from WWI and WWII - they lost a million or more Today Communism works to keep everyone "employed" in non-automated labor intensive ways that work and modernization will occur a bit slower as the new generations find their modern era jobs. The war for most Vietnamese is a distant past and most do not even remember as they were born afterwards.
 

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I am afraid that you have it very wrong - HO was a nationalist and as a Communist he used it to bring his kind of nationalism to a very rural and uneducated society. The US and allies had a chance to deal with HO but decided upon the bullshit domino theory that Vietnam was an instrument of China's hegemony quests and all HO wanted was to unite the Vietnam's and build a nation - we wasted 58,000 lives on that neocon set up that was started with the Tonkin Resolution reacting to supposed NV Attacks on US destroyers that in reality never happened and were deliberately fabricated by Johnson fearing the domino play. Now Vietnam has digested through all the war and they did take a great toll as you can see giant cemeteries all along the areas south of Vinh to Saigon in the size of those in France and Belgium from WWI and WWII - they lost a million or more Today Communism works to keep everyone "employed" in non-automated labor intensive ways that work and modernization will occur a bit slower as the new generations find their modern era jobs. The war for most Vietnamese is a distant past and most do not even remember as they were born afterwards.
Where to start.

HO was a nationalist and as a Communist he used it to bring his kind of nationalism to a very rural and uneducated society by eliminating all non-communist nationalist rivals.

You are presupposing that there were no other non-communist pathways to an independent State or States of Vietnam.

The very first nationalist uprising against the French occurred in 1917 with the unsuccessful Thai Nguyen revolt. This occurred well before HCM's fabled appearance at the Versailles conference and well before HCM established the French Communist Party in 1920.

In the vacuum of power that occurred after the Japanese coup in 1945 there were several nationalist organisations that attempted to gain power. The foremost were the Indochinese communists and the moderately socialist Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng (VNQDD) The leadership of the VNQDD and other rival nationalist groups were murdered by the Communists in 1945. David Marr's, Vietnam 1945 - Quest for Power and Lien-Hang T. Nguyen's, Hanois War. Cover this important period well. I recommend them.

The Hue based 'Third way' nationalism represented by the Diem family were not spared either. Ngô Đình Diệm's, older brother Ngô Đình Khôi was killed by Communists also in 1945.

Communist suppression of nationalist rivals was both brutal and effective.

The US and allies had a chance to deal with HO but decided upon the bullshit domino theory that Vietnam was an instrument of China's hegemony?

Your history here is very bad. The US might have has a chance to deal with HCM in 1945 if Roosevelt the anti colonialist had lived. His successor Truman was indifferent.

Viet Minh successes against the French were non existent in the period 1945-1950. It was only after the resolution of the Chinese Civil war in 1950 in Mao Tse Tungs favour that the First Indochina war began in earnest. The Viet Minh Divisions that defeated the French were raised trained and equipped in China. China paid for all of it.

On the eve of the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu in April 1954 Eisenhower first mentioned the Domino Theory.

Finally, you have broader considerations that might follow what you would call the "falling domino" principle. You have a row of dominoes set up, you knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is the certainty that it will go over very quickly. So you could have a beginning of a disintegration that would have the most profound influences

In light of the the recent stalemate and armistice signed in Korea and the fact that the French were about to be defeated by a "Vietnamese" Communist army, equipped and trained by the Chinese, using Chinese tactics and commanded by Chinese generals was a perfectly valid and reasonable strategic assessment.

I am not sure who you are calling a neocon. Johnson?

The Second Indochinese war did not start with the Tonkin Gulf Resolution in August 1964. It started with the declaration of resumption of hostilities by Viet Communist Party Central Committee resolution 15 in 1959.

The USA was well and truly at war with North Vietnam prior to August 1964. The first CMOH awarded for Vietnam Service for example was as a result of the Battle of Nam Dong in July 1964.

The reason why so many people were killed in Vietnam can be completely sheeted home to the Lao Dong party generally and HCM in particular, who always opted for war war instead of jaw jaw. He did it in 1946 with the French. He resumed the war in 1959 with Resolution 15. The Vietnamese were ever recalcitrant at the Paris Peace talks from 1968 until 1973.

That the Vietnamese economy is the worst performer in the Region is also the responsibility of the Lao Dong Party. This is in spite of the Đổi Mới reforms of 1986. The Đổi Mới reforms were a 180 degree rejection of the war aims outlined in Resolution 15.

Every principle that Vietnamese communist soldiers fought and died for were trashed and betrayed in 1986.

That is perhaps one of the greatest pities of the war.

A war that Vietnam could not afford. It was not until 2001 that Russia wrote off the $10 billion dollar debt that the Communists used to finance their war.

If you want to discuss the history and politics of Indochina I'm happy to have that discussion. Maybe suggest you start a new thread?
 
You have peeled the onion back one more level of detail - Vietnam took enormous aid from Russia to simply prick at the American and cost us blood & money - it was part of the game, China played the fence. If there is any distinction on HO's communism i would say he did not want to be an instrument of the "domino chain", he wanted a country as they do now. Appreciate all your details but I think books and studies now show clearly that the US from Eisenhower on to Kennedy over reacted and wanted a proxy gov't in place - an instrument of CIA thinking and we doctored history to make things happen. Today Vietnam is whole weary of the Chinese & Russians.
 

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