Did any British Forces Serve In Vietnam?

[yank_eyetie]

I blame 'Platoon' and John Wayne and that 'Green Beret'. There is of course the question mark about the Yanks disregarding the advice given by Robert Thompson..............but they were correct to do so. Thompson didn't/couldn't see that the circumstances of our great victory in Malaya was largely down to the fact that there was a huge cultural gap between the population and the Chinese backed commies. There was no such gap between the North Vietnamese and their Southern counterparts.

Don't forget the Rambo and Missing in Action (Chuck Norris) movies.

 

[QRK2]

The point I'm making is the same one I made a few months back ... why are people so desperate to prove UK involvement in a war that went somewhat badly and why do they keep recycling the same old cr@p as 'proof' that has been refuted year-in, year-out on this thread.

Especially as the North did so well without our help.

© various HK Bars 1967-71

 

[Tongnye]

You used to call yourself Nignoy when in the guise of an porkie-telling, wobble-arsed, ex-ACC fantasist.

What happened ?

From 2014 to 2017 i was working in Spain ,when I was diagnosed with Lyphatic Melanoma,so we returned to Australia, for some sreason I was banned from using Nignoy, so I changed to Tongnye(bigbelly), no subterfuge intended, nice to see you are still whinging badgerheed, I have never denied being ex ACC,and while I di have a weight problem for a few years,excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes, myold dragon speak programme is on its last legs, , december before last the melanoma reutrned with a vengeance,bringing with it kidney cancer resulting in the removal of half my left kidney, I am now awaiting results of a biopsy of a cancerous growth in my duodenum,and so things dont get boring i am the registeredcarer for Mrs Nig who has stage 4 terminal lung cancer, so any comments from badgerheed and his ilk, go into the who cares basket!!our lives are to short and busy to give a ****, happy easter from Covid free TOOWOOMBA!!

 

[par avion]

I blame 'Platoon' and John Wayne and that 'Green Beret'. There is of course the question mark about the Yanks disregarding the advice given by Robert Thompson..............but they were correct to do so. Thompson didn't/couldn't see that the circumstances of our great victory in Malaya was largely down to the fact that there was a huge cultural gap between the population and the Chinese backed commies. There was no such gap between the North Vietnamese and their Southern counterparts.

I think the main differences was the fact that we controlled the Government in Malaya from 1948 to independence in 1957 and the Malaysians pretty much took our advice after that and during Confrontation from 1963-66. The Americans had to deal with a corrupt Vietnamese government in SVN.

Also the CT's in Malaya did not receive outside help with no friendly countries next door to obtain assistance from. The French war in Indo China was lost once the PRC gained power in 1949 and the French lost control of the border areas between North Vietnam and China. The USSR and China poured military aid to the Viet Minh which ended up with the French defeat in Dien Bien Phu.

The aid continued in the sixties with vast amounts of military hardware entering SVN through the Ho Chi Min trail via Laos and Cambodia with fully equiped NVA and VC mainforce Divisions giving battle to US and SVN Divisions in conventional fighting where most of the fighting in Malaya was between company strengh units at its height in the early fifties and generally platoon sized engagements. Its a myth that the US were defeated by lightly armed black pyjama clad guerillas - farmers by day, guerillas by night.

Vietnam was really more like the Korean war than Malaya with the big exceptions being that the PLA did not fight in SVN as overt combatants like they did in Korea. The other big difference is that Korea is a mountainous peninsula with a limited road system in the fifties and surounded by the sea on both sides which was totally controlled by US and UN air and sea units with no infiltration possible on a large scale with an equivelent Ho Chi Min type trail.

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

. . . .Vietnam was really more like the Korean war than Malaya with the big exceptions being that the PLA did not fight in SVN as overt combatants like they did in Korea. The other big difference is that Korea is a mountainous peninsula with a limited road system in the fifties and surounded by the sea on both sides which was totally controlled by US and UN air and sea units with no infiltration possible on a large scale with an equivelent Ho Chi Min type trail.

My bold: you couldn't be more incorrect.

In May 1965, Ho requested Chinese support in both men and material: Mao responded, with the first units arriving in July of that year, the bulk consisting of AAA units to defend Hanoi and the transportation system.*

This support allowed Ho to concentrate NVA units for field operations and the defence of supply routes south.**

*Li, X. (2007). A History of the Modern Chinese Army. Lexington, KY: University Press of Kentucky.

** China's Involvement in the Vietnam War, 1964–69* | The China Quarterly | Cambridge Core

 

[twentyfirstoffoot]

In May 1965, Ho requested Chinese support in both men and material: Mao responded, with the first units arriving in July of that year, the bulk consisting of AAA units to defend Hanoi and the transportation system.*

I think that puts them firmly in North Vietnam. @par avion 's comment was the PLA did not fight in South Vietnam as overt combatants which is probably correct.

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

I think that puts them firmly in North Vietnam. @par avion 's comment was the PLA did not fight in South Vietnam as overt combatants which is probably correct.

Yes and no: PLA and ARVN troops did clash in minor engagements - the only major ground engagement being the coming together of both forces when China annexed the portion of the Paracel Islands claimed by S Vietnam.

The battle lasted less than a day (19 Jan 1974) and resulted in about 100 KIA on both sides.

PLA later admitted to a total of 1400 KIA for the duration of the Vietnam War.

 

[exspy]

Yes and no: PLA and ARVN troops did clash in minor engagements...

Really? In SVN? Can you provide where and when?

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

Really? In SVN? Can you provide where and when?

Washington Post and others:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1989/05/17/china-admits-combat-in-vietnam-war/6b9cb8a4-4d18-48bf-80d2-bea80f64057c/

Whilst such sources exist, they included many discrepancies, particularly in casualty figures: as an instance, the quoted source declares that China suffered 4000 killed during the course of the war.

Other sources suggest the number killed was no more than 1400 and that the number injured was 4000ca *

* Zhai, Qiang (2000). China and the Vietnam wars, 1950–1975. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 978-0807825327.

 

[selectvestry]

Especially as the North did so well without our help.

© various HK Bars 1967-71

Especially as the North did so well without our help.

© various HK Bars 1967-71

An absolute true Story. Soldiers from 19 Bde deployed to the FARELF during the first half of 1970 on an Exercise called Bersatu Padu. We were given a few days R&R in Singapore and most from the Bde ended up in the Brit Club. In the Club at the same time were lots of US Military, both Navy and Marines, sometime during the wild party a US Marine demanded of a squaddie called Yorky Simpson, from the DLI, " When are you Limeys going to get involved in Vietnam" !!! Yorkie, without pausing, replied, not sure, I thing the VC are doing ok without us!!! The punch-up that followed was like the Wild West. To add to it Wrens, QA's and WAAF' s were dancing with US Sailors and were wearing the US Navy Hat. When the Shore Patrols arrived they battoned heads wearing the US Navy Hat. Result some UK Servicewomen with sore heads. By the way an Australian Battalion on its way back from Vietnam took part in Bersautu Padu as did a Kiwi Gun Bty on its way to Vietnam.

 

[par avion]

. By the way an Australian Battalion on its way back from Vietnam took part in Bersautu Padu as did a Kiwi Gun Bty on its way to Vietnam.

The Australian unit you mention was probably stationed at Nee Soon Camp, Singapore with 28 Commonwealth having moved from Terendak camp in Malaysia. Australian infantry battalions going to Vietnam went there straight from Australia. The Kiwi gun battery went straight from New Zealand I think although Victor and Whiskey companies of 1 RNZIR went direct from Malaysia and Singapore.

 

[Saturation]

An absolute true Story. Soldiers from 19 Bde deployed to the FARELF during the first half of 1970 on an Exercise called Bersatu Padu. We were given a few days R&R in Singapore and most from the Bde ended up in the Brit Club. In the Club at the same time were lots of US Military, both Navy and Marines, sometime during the wild party a US Marine demanded of a squaddie called Yorky Simpson, from the DLI, " When are you Limeys going to get involved in Vietnam" !!! Yorkie, without pausing, replied, not sure, I thing the VC are doing ok without us!!! The punch-up that followed was like the Wild West. To add to it Wrens, QA's and WAAF' s were dancing with US Sailors and were wearing the US Navy Hat. When the Shore Patrols arrived they battoned heads wearing the US Navy Hat. Result some UK Servicewomen with sore heads. By the way an Australian Battalion on its way back from Vietnam took part in Bersautu Padu as did a Kiwi Gun Bty on its way to Vietnam.

Good dit mate, but that is all it is.
The reasons I say this are : The Aussies returning home travelled directly to Australia on the HMAS Sydney without stopping and the Kiwi battery deployed to SVN in 1965, not 1970, the battery was withdrawn in May 1971 and travelled directly home without any stopovers apart for refuelling the C130 they travelled on.

This thread is a gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Saturation]

The Australian unit you mention was probably stationed at Nee Soon Camp, Singapore with 28 Commonwealth having moved from Terendak camp in Malaysia. Australian infantry battalions going to Vietnam went there straight from Australia. The Kiwi gun battery went straight from New Zealand I think although Victor and Whiskey companies of 1 RNZIR went direct from Malaysia and Singapore.

You are correct in all your details.

 

[par avion]

My bold: you couldn't be more incorrect.

In May 1965, Ho requested Chinese support in both men and material: Mao responded, with the first units arriving in July of that year, the bulk consisting of AAA units to defend Hanoi and the transportation system.*

This support allowed Ho to concentrate NVA units for field operations and the defence of supply routes south.**

*Li, X. (2007). A History of the Modern Chinese Army. Lexington, KY: University Press of Kentucky.

** China's Involvement in the Vietnam War, 1964–69* | The China Quarterly | Cambridge Core

As mentioned I wasn't talking about North Vietnam but fighting units in action against US and ARVN units in South Vietnam as per the equivelent of the 60th Chinese Army against 29 British Brigade in the Battle of the Imjin river in April 1951. This didn't happen as their were no formed fighting units operating in SVN alongside NVA and mainforce VC units. MACV-SOG teams came across Chinese advisors in Laos and Cambodia alongside the Ho Chi Min trai.

The North Vietnamese didn't need mainforce PLA units as per Korea as they were doing all right without them. Also the Vietnamese, especially Ho Chi Min had a great suspicion of the Chinese. When the French reoccupied Indo China in 1945 instead of the Chinese he famously said something along the lines of "better to eat French shit for a few more years than Chinese shit for another thousand years" referering to Chinese control over Vietnam.

The Viets were going to allow no more Chinese military in either North or South Vietnam than was strickly necessary. AA units and advisors - yes. Combat units definitely not. As for the casualty figures you quote. They could easily have been inflickted on AA units and other specialist stationed in North Vietnam or advisors.

So, sorry, you couldn't be more incorrect.

 

[par avion]

Good dit mate, but that is all it is.
The reasons I say this are : The Aussies returning home travelled directly to Australia on the HMAS Sydney without stopping and the Kiwi battery deployed to SVN in 1965, not 1970, the battery was withdrawn in May 1971 and travelled directly home without any stopovers apart for refuelling the C130 they travelled on.

This thread is a gift that keeps on giving.

Didn't the Kiwi battery stay in SVN for the duration but the personnel change over as individuals?

 

[Saturation]

Didn't the Kiwi battery stay in SVN for the duration but the personnel change over as individuals?

Yes, as a complete unit with individual personnel change every 12 months, but as I stated the unit as a whole was withdrawn completely in May 71.
In my opinion, the powers that be both Aus and NZ were not stupid enough to divert returning home soldiers from active service, onto an ex in Malaysia en route.

 

[exspy]

Washington Post and others:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1989/05/17/china-admits-combat-in-vietnam-war/6b9cb8a4-4d18-48bf-80d2-bea80f64057c/

Whilst such sources exist, they included many discrepancies, particularly in casualty figures: as an instance, the quoted source declares that China suffered 4000 killed during the course of the war.

Other sources suggest the number killed was no more than 1400 and that the number injured was 4000ca *

* Zhai, Qiang (2000). China and the Vietnam wars, 1950–1975. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 978-0807825327.

The quoted Washington Post article makes absolutely no mention of Chinese forces engaging ARVN or American forces in SVN, so you're zero for one with that. And I'm going to go out on a limb here by saying, without having ever read Qiang Zhai's book, that there's no mention of anything similar either.

I don't think any credible evidence exists to support such a claim.

 

[par avion]

the only major ground engagement being the coming together of both forces when China annexed the portion of the Paracel Islands claimed by S Vietnam.

The battle lasted less than a day (19 Jan 1974) and resulted in about 100 KIA on both sides.

Wiki makes no mention of NVA forces being involved in the battle. In fact they put in a claim to the islands after re-unification in 1975 and have praised South Vietnamese who took part in the battle.

Battle of the Paracel Islands.

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

Wiki makes no mention of NVA forces being involved in the battle. In fact they put in a claim to the islands after re-unification in 1975 and have praised South Vietnamese who took part in the battle.

Battle of the Paracel Islands.

I know: if you read my post on the subject, I made no mention of NVA forces engaging ARVN forces.

I did make mention that it was PLA/ARVN forces, though.

. . . and I would urge you to look beyond the initial Wiki hit when you research the subject.

 

[retread2]

I know: if you read my post on the subject, I made no mention of NVA forces engaging ARVN forces.

I did make mention that it was PLA/ARVN forces, though.

. . . and I would urge you to look beyond the initial Wiki hit when you research the subject.

Wasn't the North Vietnamese Army known as PAVN to differentiate them from t'other NVA? I just stepped into this thread from the Cold War Photo thread and my mind went . . . it just went.