Demoralisation of American army in Iraq

#1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/04/AR2006070400229.html

According to a federal affidavit, Green and three other soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division had talked about raping the young woman, whom they first saw while working at a traffic checkpoint near her home.

On the day of the attack, the document said, Green and other soldiers drank alcohol and changed out of their uniforms to avoid detection before going to the woman's house. Green used a brown T-shirt to cover his face.

Once there, the affidavit said, Green took three members of the family an adult male and female, and a girl estimated to be 5 years old into a bedroom. Shots were heard. Green allegedly shot the woman in the head after he and another soldier raped her, the affidavit said.

Green was dishonorably discharged from the Army because of a "personality disorder" before the attack came to light, the affadavit said. He is being prosecuted in federal, rather than military, court because he is no longer in the Army.
I have heard that the raped "woman" really was a 15 year old girl.

On Tuesday, Iraq's largest newspaper, Azzaman, expressed skepticism that the soldiers would be severely punished.
...
Iraq's justice minister demanded Tuesday that the U.N. Security Council ensure a group of U.S. troops is punished for allegedly raping and murdering a young Iraqi woman and executing her family, calling the attack "monstrous and inhuman."
I know one method to prevent this sort of crimes in the very effective way. Green is not in military now. Give up him to Iraqi authorities and democratic Iraqi court would decide his fate.
 
#2
KGB_resident said:
I know one method to prevent this sort of crimes in the very effective way. Green is not in military now. Give up him to Iraqi authorities and democratic Iraqi court would decide his fate.
Good call Sergey. I don't see how the Americans could object since they have insisted on the extradition to the USA of 3 British bankers to answer charges relating to a much less serious offence. Perhaps you should run this thread in the Multinational HQ to gauge feelings on this one over there.
 
#3
Hang on .... Rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and her family? Defrauding an American company? I think I've just found a flaw in my argument Sergey. :(
 
#4
Xenophon said:
KGB_resident said:
I know one method to prevent this sort of crimes in the very effective way. Green is not in military now. Give up him to Iraqi authorities and democratic Iraqi court would decide his fate.
Good call Sergey. I don't see how the Americans could object since they have insisted on the extradition to the USA of 3 British bankers to answer charges relating to a much less serious offence. Perhaps you should run this thread in the Multinational HQ to gauge feelings on this one over there.
Xenophon!

The theme that I propose to discuss is more serious than this isolated incident. It is rather an idicator of degradation and demoralisation of American army caused namely by Iraqi war. Also is is a good cause to discuss the impact of the war on a moral level of British armed forces.

Those that join now American and British armed forces understand pretty well that Iraq will be their destination point later or sooner. Though there are some exceptions: the prince and others silver-spoon-in-mouth-born lads. Btw, what is a percent of splendid officers in the MoD that have never been to Iraq (or visited it as "tourists" during few days)?

Now our American friends are voided an ability to select good future soldiers. Too few believe official Washington's agitprop. So Amreican generals have to accept virtually anybody in their army. So Iraqi war caused lowering if average quality of American soldiers. There is a lot of well educated young Americans that would be glad to serve their motherland, to defend their country. But these elite prefer not to join armed forces. As I understand the situation in the British armed forces is quite similar.
 
#5
KGB_resident said:
Btw, what is a percent of splendid officers in the MoD that have never been to Iraq (or visited it as "tourists" during few days)?]
Sergey!

By an astonishing coincidence, we (a group of not-so-splendid officers) were discussing this at breakfast this morning, and arrived at a estimated figure of some 60% that have deployed on tour there, based on figures from JSCSC, tour rotations, lengths of tour, the profile of a 'typical' MoD staff officer, and the total time we have been in Iraq to date.

Probably complete pants and I look forward to some clueless internet warrior telling me so.
 
#6
Darth_Doctrinus said:
KGB_resident said:
Btw, what is a percent of splendid officers in the MoD that have never been to Iraq (or visited it as "tourists" during few days)?]
Sergey!

By an astonishing coincidence, we (a group of not-so-splendid officers) were discussing this at breakfast this morning, and arrived at a estimated figure of some 60% that have deployed on tour there, based on figures from JSCSC, tour rotations, lengths of tour, the profile of a 'typical' MoD staff officer, and the total time we have been in Iraq to date.

Probably complete pants and I look forward to some clueless internet warrior telling me so.
I noticed on a parade the other day that at least half of those present had the Telic medal on their chest, so I don't think your SWAG is too far from reality! The only really bare chests were those belonging to the-too-wet-behind-the-ears brigade and members of the other two Services!

Litotes
 
#7
Darth_Doctrinus said:
KGB_resident said:
Btw, what is a percent of splendid officers in the MoD that have never been to Iraq (or visited it as "tourists" during few days)?]
Sergey!

By an astonishing coincidence, we (a group of not-so-splendid officers) were discussing this at breakfast this morning, and arrived at a estimated figure of some 60% that have deployed on tour there, based on figures from JSCSC, tour rotations, lengths of tour, the profile of a 'typical' MoD staff officer, and the total time we have been in Iraq to date.

Probably complete pants and I look forward to some clueless internet warrior telling me so.
Darth_Doctrinus!

60% is a big enough number. And I'm sure, MoD staff officers are among the best in Iraq. It is good if you see in your tent in the desert an officer-aristocrat or from a rich family that serves normally in London, in the MoD sitting in a comfortable armchair. And now he is in the same situation as you. It boosts morale of soldiers.

It would be interesting to hear similar estimates made by our American friends.

PS. As I understand it, every British officer must be splendid because HM armed forces are likely the best in the World.
 
#8
KGB_resident said:
Those that join now American and British armed forces understand pretty well that Iraq will be their destination point later or sooner. Though there are some exceptions: the prince and others silver-spoon-in-mouth-born lads. Btw, what is a percent of splendid officers in the MoD that have never been to Iraq (or visited it as "tourists" during few days)?

Now our American friends are voided an ability to select good future soldiers. Too few believe official Washington's agitprop. So Amreican generals have to accept virtually anybody in their army. So Iraqi war caused lowering if average quality of American soldiers. There is a lot of well educated young Americans that would be glad to serve their motherland, to defend their country. But these elite prefer not to join armed forces. As I understand the situation in the British armed forces is quite similar.
Sergey,

You undoubtedly have a point. It is becoming an increasingly unpopular operation. Not so much because of the casualties (we lost 255 plus 700+ wounded in the Falklands in a very short space of time by comparison and they were accepted because the population were generally behind the war) but because of the general perception that the war could have been avoided and that we appear to operate at the beck and call of the Americans. I cannot tell you exactly how far our inability to recruit can be attributed to Iraq but there are other factors as well.

In the armed forces I would be surprised if a unit or an individual did not relish an operational tour. It is after all what we joined to do for the most part. However, there is increasingly a perception that the highest level of the Army, in particular, is not being robust enough with the politicians and as a result lives may be lost which might not have been if force levels and resources were appropriate to the mission and also if the mission is flawed. Helmand is a case in point here.

You are wrong to assume that soldiers born into privelege get preferential treatment. I am not aware of the exact mission profiles flown by Prince Andrew in the Falkland War he may have been 'protected' somehow I doubt it - but he was involved. The Duke of Wellington was killed serving as a captain with the 1st Battalion of his regiment at Anzio in 1944. Lord Lyell won the VC posthumously in Tunisia in 1943. It's not the same now, we are not engaged in a war of national survival. However, it is the character of the individual which often dictates whether he deploys for operations. A few will go to quite extraordinary lengths to avoid deployments and be quite content to play musical chairs in offices around the principal peacetime concentrations of the Army - the South west of England is one such place. It will have very little to do with their background. I hesitate to use this term but it is one you will be familiar with but the 'blue-bloods' with the right character can be found on operations in the same way as the rest of us. Those content to try and sit it out will do so as well. Those in units which are deploying have little choice however.
 
#9
Xenophon said:
KGB_resident said:
Those that join now American and British armed forces understand pretty well that Iraq will be their destination point later or sooner. Though there are some exceptions: the prince and others silver-spoon-in-mouth-born lads. Btw, what is a percent of splendid officers in the MoD that have never been to Iraq (or visited it as "tourists" during few days)?

Now our American friends are voided an ability to select good future soldiers. Too few believe official Washington's agitprop. So Amreican generals have to accept virtually anybody in their army. So Iraqi war caused lowering if average quality of American soldiers. There is a lot of well educated young Americans that would be glad to serve their motherland, to defend their country. But these elite prefer not to join armed forces. As I understand the situation in the British armed forces is quite similar.
Sergey,

You undoubtedly have a point. It is becoming an increasingly unpopular operation. Not so much because of the casualties (we lost 255 plus 700+ wounded in the Falklands in a very short space of time by comparison and they were accepted because the population were generally behind the war) but because of the general perception that the war could have been avoided and that we appear to operate at the beck and call of the Americans. I cannot tell you exactly how far our inability to recruit can be attributed to Iraq but there are other factors as well.

In the armed forces I would be surprised if a unit or an individual did not relish an operational tour. It is after all what we joined to do for the most part. However, there is increasingly a perception that the highest level of the Army, in particular, is not being robust enough with the politicians and as a result lives may be lost which might not have been if force levels and resources were appropriate to the mission and also if the mission is flawed. Helmand is a case in point here.

You are wrong to assume that soldiers born into privelege get preferential treatment.
I believe that in British army there is no difference in treatmen but there is a natural difference in opportunities.

Xenophon said:
I am not aware of the exact mission profiles flown by Prince Andrew in the Falkland War he may have been 'protected' somehow I doubt it - but he was involved. The Duke of Wellington was killed serving as a captain with the 1st Battalion of his regiment at Anzio in 1944. Lord Lyell won the VC posthumously in Tunisia in 1943. It's not the same now, we are not engaged in a war of national survival. However, it is the character of the individual which often dictates whether he deploys for operations. A few will go to quite extraordinary lengths to avoid deployments and be quite content to play musical chairs in offices around the principal peacetime concentrations of the Army - the South west of England is one such place. It will have very little to do with their background. I hesitate to use this term but it is one you will be familiar with but the 'blue-bloods' with the right character can be found on operations in the same way as the rest of us. Those content to try and sit it out will do so as well. Those in units which are deploying have little choice however.
Interesting post. Thank you Xenophon. So it seems to me that you agree that Iraqi war itself is not improving level of British armed forces. By contrast I believe that impact of Falkland war was quite different. Despite many loses it (I'm sure) stimulated many lads (Salt of the Earth of Great Britain) to begin military carrier.
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#10
KGB_resident said:
Darth_Doctrinus!

60% is a big enough number. And I'm sure, MoD staff officers are among the best in Iraq. It is good if you see in your tent in the desert an officer-aristocrat or from a rich family that serves normally in London, in the MoD sitting in a comfortable armchair. And now he is in the same situation as you. It boosts morale of soldiers.
A quality 80's view of the British Officer class by the Soviets.
 
#11
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/us/04arrest.html

The Army is considering whether it could reactivate Mr. Green in order to allow the military to prosecute him, rather than leaving the case to civilian authorities, an Army official said.
It is another sign of a degradation of American military. A murderer and rapist is welcommed into American army again just to protect him.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#12
Xenophon said:
You are wrong to assume that soldiers born into privelege get preferential treatment. I am not aware of the exact mission profiles flown by Prince Andrew in the Falkland War he may have been 'protected' somehow I doubt it - but he was involved
He was a Lynx pilot IIRC on one of the carriers ...and one of his roles was to provide missile decoying if required.That is, inbound missile targets the ship, helo attempts to seduce off target - by offering itself as an alternative target :)

So, YES the Queen's son was in an operational environment and definitely in the firing line and NO, neither he nor anyone else in the chain of command considered removing him from his role just because there happened to be a shooting war going on.

Sergey, you seem to have a fascination for the concept that the British Armed Forces contain people with titles. One such is the current Duke of Westminster, whose family own a large part of the most expensive bits of London. He is also a Brigadier, having served in the TA since he was in his twenties. I know he was in Iraq in 2003 - 'cos I escorted my CO up to Basra for a pow-wow with him. Don't think that was operational tour though.

I guess this is on a par with the Paris Match obsession with royalty ?

The notion that British boyars and natchalstvo can pull strings to avoid going on Ops is rather quaint....yes, if they wanted to, I'm guessing they they could...for the most part, in my experience, they are more likely to pull strings to GET an ops appt.

Please don't take this as some serf loyally rallying around the concept of aristos - the few that I've met are pretty much like the broad run of humanity - some thick as mince and others sharp as two tacks....there's a kind of reverse snobbery in the Forces - the more cut-glass the accent, the more likely people are to assume the man's an ineffectual chinless idiot.....

(do I get to keep my izba now Your Clemency ? )

Le Chevre

<< Allez les Bleus !! >>
 
#13
#15
Would have thought that Officers want Iraq/Afghanistan command appointments, as that's another measure when it comes to being graded against their peer group.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#16
Lasalle said:
The Duke of Westminster is a two star general.
Yes - been promoted since Telic 1.
 
#17
Sergey,

As the scion of a capitalist land-owning family, I can assure that there is no preferential treatment for we dilettantes and sybarites. Despite my family's interests and connections at court no indignity has been spared from my weary shoulders.
 
#18
SO3Paperclips said:
Sergey,

As the scion of a capitalist land-owning family, I can assure that there is no preferential treatment for we dilettantes and sybarites. Despite my family's interests and connections at court no indignity has been spared from my weary shoulders.
Of course I believe you. But 'blue blood', connections, status of parents could work in a very unexpected way, without any request you could be in preferable situation. I recall one funny case.

As I have said before my father is a former colonel of KGB (many don't believe it, no matter). Then I was a student of Moscow university (I'm a mathematician) I had 4-year course of military education. In my 21 I was sent as a cadet (along with other students) to anti-aircraft high school in Armavir (it prepare anti-aircart pilots). Common attitude to us was not bad but we were shown what a real army means. Each day was filled with intensive training, marching and so on and so forth. We were almost voided free time and felt asleep each evening almost as cadavers.

Few days after our arrival we we ordered to present ourselves to a colonel that supervised our course. I have natural very loud voice (that military men adore). So then I entered I filled the cabinet of the colonel with my bass - Zdraviya zhalayu tovarishch polkovnik!. Unexpectedly the colonel asked about my father. I said that he is in military and serves in Moscow (I hadn't said where exactly). It should be said that that I look as my father and he has a very strong voice too. Moreover ny name

Poleshchuk Sergey Nikolaevich (mean son of Nikilay) and my father
Poleshchuk Nikolay Petrovich

Poleshchuk is Ukrainian surname and normally spells Polishchuk. Letter 'e' in the surname is a rare exception.

From that day our regime had changed dramatically. It was rather a resort. Then I returned to Moscow I said about it to my father and about the strange question. My father smiled and said he supervises counter-intelligence service in the school and just a several weeks ago a head of school's counter-intelligence was in Moscow to report about his activity.
 
#19
Goatman said:
Lasalle said:
The Duke of Westminster is a two star general.
Yes - been promoted since Telic 1.
I read an interview with him years ago when he was a lowly Lt Colonel ( :D ) in which he said the achievements he was most proud of were those in the TA.

He said this was because his TA service was the only sphere of his life where his money and title didn't matter when push came to shove.

You might take this with a slight pinch of salt, but I reckon it's broadly the case.

You could certainly argue that only an officer who didn't need to work and thus could devote plenty of time to the TA can reasonably rise beyond Lt Col without becoming FTRS or similar, but as Goatman says, he's been to Iraq and may well turn up in Afghanistan at some point as the TA are deploying on HERRICK as well as the Regular Army.
 
#20
As we all know, Soldiers are simply a representation of the civilian population, and as such we have within our ranks people who are capable of carrying out atrocities such as the one Sergey has described.

However to blame crimes like that on being demoralised by Operations in Iraq is a very lame one. I for one having been to Iraq twice and going for a third time soon, well to put it simply I am not looking forward to going away and leaving my family for six months, for a cause which means nothing to me until I start getting a 10% discount at petrol stations with my ID Card.
I am not filled with pride in doing my duty, but more filled with apprehension as to what lies ahead for my colleagues and me when we deploy.

I will however go to Iraq and do what I get paid for which is to Soldier; I will not be raping 15-year-old girls whilst the rest of my section does the remainder of the house with 5.56.

Iraqi civilians have been suffering more from battle fatigue than the coalition Troops have since the end of the war, in a never-ending cycle of violence. Soldiers have committed crimes in operations for years York, Crusades, Culloden, Boer War, WW1, WW2, Korea, blah blah blah,

What happened in that house in my opinion was caused by; a majority twisted individuals who found themselves with an opportunity to carryout the act, with a high chance of getting away with it, and took it.
 

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