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Demise of the city centre

syrup

LE
Every city I’ve ever visited or lived in that has trams, mixes them with normal road traffic. Zurich, Karlsruhe, Heidelberg, Nantes to name a small number. I wonder what the problem is with folk in the UK who can’t cope with the idea.


I would suggest it's a few things
Years ago when we had trams everyone was used to them as they are in many of the cities that have them now
The standard of driving in the UK has plummeted people don't know how to interact with other vehicles and enter and leave junctions and roundabouts.

Cyclists get a away with murder in the UK compared to overseas cities.
My experience driving overseas is that yes there are stricter rules on the roads concerning cyclists but the cyclist is expected to obey them also.
Here there are people swerving in and out of traffic, riding down the side of people trying to turn left riding through red lights
Little wonder they get clipped by cars trams and trucks
 
I would suggest it's a few things
Years ago when we had trams everyone was used to them as they are in many of the cities that have them now
The standard of driving in the UK has plummeted people don't know how to interact with other vehicles and enter and leave junctions and roundabouts.

Cyclists get a away with murder in the UK compared to overseas cities.
My experience driving overseas is that yes there are stricter rules on the roads concerning cyclists but the cyclist is expected to obey them also.
Here there are people swerving in and out of traffic, riding down the side of people trying to turn left riding through red lights
Little wonder they get clipped by cars trams and trucks
I’d love to see some evidence for this, as it’s not my experience. Perhaps you’re conflating ”UK” an “London”. I have almost no experience of cyclists in London.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
For a short stretch, yes. Why?
I've never been to Edinburgh, in fact I have only been to Scotland once, so I was curious to find out if the strange arrangement which someone told me about was true.

The places that I have been to where a modern tram system has been introduced all have been designed as a method of separating travelling people from cars, traffic, bikes, delivery vehicles and emergency response vehicles etc, and providing a rapid transit for humans to get around.

If, as in the case of Edinburgh the trams can only move at the speed of regular traffic, it seems a bit strange really, as they have to stop and start like everyone else. Do trams have priority over other traffic though and are traffic lights set so they can detect a tram etc?

Anyway, thanks for your response so take care and all the best mate.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
I’d love to see some evidence for this, as it’s not my experience. Perhaps you’re conflating ”UK” an “London”. I have almost no experience of cyclists in London.
Cyclists in that London are mostly completely self centred morons who think they are entitled to do exactly what they want to do, regardless of anyone else.
 
I've never been to Edinburgh, in fact I have only been to Scotland once, so I was curious to find out if the strange arrangement which someone told me about was true.

The places that I have been to where a modern tram system has been introduced all have been designed as a method of separating travelling people from cars, traffic, bikes, delivery vehicles and emergency response vehicles etc, and providing a rapid transit for humans to get around.

If, as in the case of Edinburgh the trams can only move at the speed of regular traffic, it seems a bit strange really, as they have to stop and start like everyone else. Do trams have priority over other traffic though and are traffic lights set so they can detect a tram etc?

Anyway, thanks for your response so take care and all the best mate.
The tramline is Edinburgh is separated over most of its length, and if you think mixed traffic and trams is such a big problem, I recommend that you never go to Zurich or Basel.
 
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syrup

LE
I’d love to see some evidence for this, as it’s not my experience. Perhaps you’re conflating ”UK” an “London”. I have almost no experience of cyclists in London.


No don't live in London

Experience as a professional driver watching cars turning right on roundabouts while staying in the left hand lane.
People not knowing whose got right of way at roundabouts
Cyclists pedalling down the middle of the road while there's a cycle path next to them that they aren't usin.
Cyclists riding on and off the pavement, pulling wheelies down the centre of the road, groups of lycra clad wombles cycling 6 deep in their own little pelaton

There's a big long list as I say it's not hard to understand why people regularly hit trucks and trams in city centres
 
Cyclists in that London are mostly completely self centred morons who think they are entitled to do exactly what they want to do, regardless of anyone else.
I'm perfectly happy to believe that cyclists in London are no different to anybody else in London, so I'll accept your view on this.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I’d love to see some evidence for this, as it’s not my experience. Perhaps you’re conflating ”UK” an “London”. I have almost no experience of cyclists in London.
Let's just say that as a motorist and a cyclist I'm appalled by the standard of cycling in London.

I made a point elsewhere about the standards of driving and the extractions of many of the drivers.

In terms of other road-users co-existing with trams, I agree that familiarity is an issue.

I attend a major transport-related event in Amsterdam every other year (bar this one, funnily enough). There, large numbers of cyclists, motorists and trams co-exist quite happily.

It's a question of attitude.
 
No don't live in London

Experience as a professional driver watching cars turning right on roundabouts while staying in the left hand lane.
People not knowing whose got right of way at roundabouts
Cyclists pedalling down the middle of the road while there's a cycle path next to them that they aren't usin.
Cyclists riding on and off the pavement, pulling wheelies down the centre of the road, groups of lycra clad wombles cycling 6 deep in their own little pelaton

There's a big long list as I say it's not hard to understand why people regularly hit trucks and trams in city centres
OK, but do cyclists in the UK get away with murder compared with cyclists in other countries. Is London representative of the whole UK?
 
Let's just say that as a motorist and a cyclist I'm appalled by the standard of cycling in London.

I made a point elsewhere about the standards of driving and the extractions of many of the drivers.

In terms of other road-users co-existing with trams, I agree that familiarity is an issue.

I attend a major transport-related event in Amsterdam every other year (bar this one, funnily enough). There, large numbers of cyclists, motorists and trams co-exist quite happily.

It's a question of attitude.
I absolutely agree with your last statement. I am still struggling with the concept of conflating London with the UK.
 
Anyone would think he's trying to find another bandwagon for his cult to jump on.
His, "I'm just an ordinary bloke down the pub" act is wearing a bit thin. I don't see many ordinary millionaires in the pubs around me.
 
OK, but do cyclists in the UK get away with murder compared with cyclists in other countries. Is London representative of the whole UK?
Generally cyclists are motorists as well and on the whole are OK, there are a few that think they are above the rules of the HC, think BMW and Audi drivers in Lycra.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
No don't live in London

Experience as a professional driver watching cars turning right on roundabouts while staying in the left hand lane.
People not knowing whose got right of way at roundabouts
Cyclists pedalling down the middle of the road while there's a cycle path next to them that they aren't usin.
Cyclists riding on and off the pavement, pulling wheelies down the centre of the road, groups of lycra clad wombles cycling 6 deep in their own little pelaton

There's a big long list as I say it's not hard to understand why people regularly hit trucks and trams in city centres
Cycling proficiency lessons at schools - what's the state of play there?

We can't expect people to be road-users if they've not been trained to be. You can still just pick up a bike and get on the road. You can't do that with any other vehicle.

The catch-all terms for anything smaller than a motorcycle/moped is Vulnerable Road User. VRUs have for a long time all been lumped together, which ignored that fact that a pedestrian is going to come off pretty badly in a collision with a bicycle - size matters.

So, we need to separate cyclists from pedestrians, and we need cyclists to better observe the rules of the road. There needs to be a mechanism for making that happen. What it is, I don't know.
 

syrup

LE
OK, but do cyclists in the UK get away with murder compared with cyclists in other countries. Is London representative of the whole UK?


As I say I can't speak for London as I don't live there
My experience of driving in Europe indicated that there are stricter rules for motorist / cycling interaction but they are enforced more for both sets of drivers.
I don't see any enforcement of cyclist breaking the law in the UK.
 
Cycling proficiency lessons at schools - what's the state of play there?
I know the local Primary school still does them, but it is those that have come to cycling later in life that seem to think they are above everyone else. I used to cycle 300 miles a week and have cycled LEJoG, and not once had I been threatened or knocked off (have fallen off, bloody cleats). It is attitude and how you drive/cycle. We all have to co-exist so why try and wind each other up.
 

syrup

LE
Cycling proficiency lessons at schools - what's the state of play there?

We can't expect people to be road-users if they've not been trained to be. You can still just pick up a bike and get on the road. You can't do that with any other vehicle.

The catch-all terms for anything smaller than a motorcycle/moped is Vulnerable Road User. VRUs have for a long time all been lumped together, which ignored that fact that a pedestrian is going to come off pretty badly in a collision with a bicycle - size matters.

So, we need to separate cyclists from pedestrians, and we need cyclists to better observe the rules of the road. There needs to be a mechanism for making that happen. What it is, I don't know.


When daughter did hers at school we had to pay for it
The council sent a cycling expert out to make sure they're bikes where serviceable before they could take the lessons.
They had the brakes tyres etc checked before an afternoon pedalling round the playground.
I don't think they ever got to the road
 
As I say I can't speak for London as I don't live there
My experience of driving in Europe indicated that there are stricter rules for motorist / cycling interaction but they are end=forced more for both sets of drivers.
I don't see any enforcement of cyclist breaking the law in the UK.
Well, that's not my experience of living in Germany and Switzerland, and spending more time than I am entirely comfortable with in Nantes, Paris and Amsterdam.

Each country has its peculiarities, and in the Netherlands, car drivers are generally more respectful of cyclists, but I would say the amount of taking the piss by a small number of idiots is about the same overall.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Generally cyclists are motorists as well and on the whole are OK, there are a few that think they are above the rules of the HC, think BMW and Audi drivers in Lycra.
As a MAMIL I'll agree to an extent. Nothing písses me off more than the arrogance of two blokes riding abreast on a country lane and chatting away whilst holding up the traffic behind them. There's a certain 'we've as much right to the road as anyone else' arrogance attached to that.

Flip that, though, there's a 'bloody cyclists' attitude among motorists. Whether the former feeds the latter or whether it's there anyway is a debate. Some motorists are remarkably intolerant of cyclists no matter what.

The technology exists to track individuals and how they use the roads/paths. It's not unreasonable, for safety reasons, to start applying that.
 

giatttt

Old-Salt
Every city I’ve ever visited or lived in that has trams, mixes them with normal road traffic. Zurich, Karlsruhe, Heidelberg, Nantes to name a small number. I wonder what the problem is with folk in the UK who can’t cope with the idea.
There is a junction at Haymarket that causes some issues as it makes it very easy for cyclists to end up with a wheel in the track. A major issue is cyclists travelling from Haymarket to Morrison Street or vice versa as they can't avoid crossing the tracks at an oblique angle, rain and ice do not help.

"The Council rightly recognises that many crashes occur because traffic pressures force the cyclist into the tramlines at a poor angle. Merely advising cyclists to use the correct angle would for many people just be telling them to suck eggs."
Tramline safety measures « Spokes

Despite the revised signage and cycle lanes it is still a problem
 

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