Delivering HE cheaply and accurately to 2K line of sight.

#1
This was my gobbing off on another thread. I feel it deserves a wider audience :D

"I just refuse to believe that it's impossible to rig a cheap system that would allow you to designate a target with a laser and then have the electronics tell the mortar tube when it's in the right position.

Think about it - little plastic "rifle" with a laser pointer/range finder and GPS. Reason tells you that for any target in range of a mortar tube there must be a position for the tube that will result in the bomb striking. Point the "rifle" and paint the target. The GPS knows where the tube is, it now knows where the target is, cheap electronics tells the tube what position it needs, Number Two moves the loaded tube until it indicates it's bang on, and one second later it fires.

Cost of 10lb of HE on target - couple of hundred quid. To mirror the range of the Javelin you would only need a thin aluminium low pressure, low velocity tube. The rest of the stuff wouldn't be dear either.

But why have a cheap and simple solution when a complicated and expensive one will do


Mr B. Wallis (I wish)

Now am I missing something here. Action this day. I'm sure Maplin could knock the tube and electronics out for about £60, in time for the Xmas market.
 
#2
gobbyidiot said:
This was my gobbing off on another thread. I feel it deserves a wider audience :D

"I just refuse to believe that it's impossible to rig a cheap system that would allow you to designate a target with a laser and then have the electronics tell the mortar tube when it's in the right position.

Think about it - little plastic "rifle" with a laser pointer/range finder and GPS. Reason tells you that for any target in range of a mortar tube there must be a position for the tube that will result in the bomb striking. Point the "rifle" and paint the target. The GPS knows where the tube is, it now knows where the target is, cheap electronics tells the tube what position it needs, Number Two moves the loaded tube until it indicates it's bang on, and one second later it fires.

Cost of 10lb of HE on target - couple of hundred quid. To mirror the range of the Javelin you would only need a thin aluminium low pressure, low velocity tube. The rest of the stuff wouldn't be dear either.

But why have a cheap and simple solution when a complicated and expensive one will do


Mr B. Wallis (I wish)

Now am I missing something here. Action this day. I'm sure Maplin could knock the tube and electronics out for about £60, in time for the Xmas market.
could always use 81mm in direct role in the interim
 
#3
I said in a thread once that there has to be a cheaper alternative to Javelin, and promptly got my balls ripped off.

But honestly I am forever been wondering why something like this isn’t being used, requires a grand total of two GPS systems, a laser pointer/range finder, a wifi network (or some such) and a laptop connected to a motor (to move and aim the mortar), and you have a self targetting mortar system!

Even if you got BAE to build it your only talking a couple of grand the whole kit and its not one use.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#4
Because the variable is in the ballistic flight of the round, which is not predictable enough for accuracy. You'd need a laser guidance system in the nose of the round, pluse fin controllers and then it stops being cheap. What probelm are you trying to solve?
 
#5
Cheaper way of doing it and its an effective use of chavs with loud cars....

Remove stereos from the boot, fill with explosives.
Give them a GPS and tell them that there is free booze and chavettes at point X
Once there, detonate remotely

Seriously though, havent our cousins across the pond been working on something like this - saw it on the discovery channel last year me thinks
 
#6
this is an incredibly simple idea. i'm sure right at this minute some evil genius in a defence company is reading this thread and wondering if this is the system that will make him millions.

what it comes down to is:

a) is it needed?
b) is there funding for its development?
 
#7
gobbyidiot said:
"I just refuse to believe that it's impossible to rig a cheap system that would allow you to designate a target with a laser and then have the electronics tell the mortar tube when it's in the right position.
t.


LH40c / SPGR; FCA/MFDC; two little bubbles on a C2 sight and Robert is indeed your mothers' brother.

Would remove the O from BEACHLOAF so no point. The ability to hit obscured targets is one of the joys of the 81 / IDF; it has a mighty big audio / visual firing signature so the det really would not want to be too visible to the bad guys.
 
#8
So essentialy you are taking out the man in the loop (ie the FCA operator) and replacing him with a machine that calculated the ballistaic trajectory beween 2 GPSed points.

Sounds easy.



Coldstreamers Mor Pl using an FCA
 
#9
Except that this machine in the CP would need an operator.

Could call him somthing like, ooh dunno; Command Post Operator?
 
#10
gobbyidiot said:
The GPS knows where the tube is, it now knows where the target is,
Well, it knows the range to the target, but does it know the azimuth? You aren't going to get that with anything short of a gyrocompassing theodolite, I suggest.

The alternative is designation in the true sense, as someone has mentioned, with a laser guided (rather than ballistic) mortar bomb.
 
#12
Something like it is already out there. Soltam in Israel make an outstanding 60mm mortar for AFVs. Early ones were bolted on the side of the turret: more recent ones are breech loaders which 'hang' from the inside of the turret roof.

http://www.supervideo.com/Merkava 60mmMortar.jpg

(That should be a link to a photo - if it doesn't work, google Soltam 60 mm mortar and you should see it)

Because they are fixed to the turret, they are always on for line. The crew simply lase the target, and then unlock the mortar; dial the range into the sight which includes an air bubble, and then the mortar is moved backwards or forwards until the air bubble is in the right place. Lock the mortar, load and fire. (That's a mong explanation of something which takes less than 5 secs!). It's accurate to 50m out to over 2500m and is so simple an officer can use it. I had a first round hit on my first engagement. You just have to ensure that you didn't leave your bergen on the top of the turret...

Because it's 'dumb', it's also relatively 'cheap'. It's main advantage is that it gives AFV crews the ability to fire something which is bigger than 7.62 but less than 120mm. It also allows the crew to lay smoke, fire illum, etc.

FB
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
There's a system on the 105mm that could provide all the positioning info, incl azimuth (could look it up, but lazy). The probelm is not the positioning of the tube or target indication, it remains that the bomb goes up into the air and the wind etc. No matter how good your ballistic calculations point to point you'll still end up in too many inaccuracies to be a bunker buster without some kind of terminal guidance in the bomb itself. And that costs money. The other point is that bunkers etc tend to be built with top protection, but are highly vulnerable to a horizontal attack.

Having said that, I suspect it would be cheaper than Brimstone et al.

Tell you what, you write up the URD and SRD, find the UOR cash and I'll put it together. In service in 12 months.

BTW, who's carrying it?

Editted once for mongspielink
 
#14
LH40C / SPGR / FCA is what you need (as already said). Mortars whether 60 or 81mm are an area weapon. End of story.

Minor edit for clarification.
 
#15
Bouillabaisse said:
There's a system on the 105mm that could provide all the positioning info, incl azimuth (could look it up, but lazy). The probelm is not the positioning of the tube or target indication, it remains that the bomb goes up into the air and the wind etc. No matter how good your ballistic calculations point to point you'll still end up in too many inaccuracies to be a bunker buster without some kind of terminal guidance in the bomb itself. And that costs money. The other point is that bunkers etc tend to be built with top protection, but are highly vulnerable to a horizontal attack.

Having said that, I suspect it would be cheaper than Brimstone et al.

Tell you what, you write up the URD and SRD, find the UOR cash and I'll put it together. In service in 12 months.

BTW, who's carrying it?

Editted once for mongspielink
Why? Why do we have to insist that a shell/bomb is unstable. The author is preposing a Line of sight HE/HESH/HEAT delivery system. What's wrong with suggesting that perhaps an old school "Gun" will do the trick...... Say a modern verison of the old Wehrmarcht 75mm/105mm Infantry gun. Bang the muzzle velocity up and some of the problems are solved. A shell is always going to be cheap in comparison with javelin so a couple of rounds to bracket will still cost bugger all.
 
#16
He's not saying its unstable - he's saying the wind will probably blow it off course!!!!! If the MFC knows his stuff then it shouldn't take long to get rounds on target!

If we talking about a whole new weapon system then who is going to cough up the cash????
 
#17
If the mortar line can see the target they are quite capable of hitting it themselves, all they need is an accurate range and a first round hit is very likely. For IDF no amount of gizmos will replace the MFC-CPO-No1 relationship (or is that just 3 Para).
 
#19
81mm, LH40C, SPGR, FCA and good number 1's. It's an area weapon but if you really want to mallet a target - converge!
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#20
Bravo_Bravo said:
gobbyidiot said:
"I just refuse to believe that it's impossible to rig a cheap system that would allow you to designate a target with a laser and then have the electronics tell the mortar tube when it's in the right position.
t.


LH40c / SPGR; FCA/MFDC; two little bubbles on a C2 sight and Robert is indeed your mothers' brother.

Would remove the O from BEACHLOAF so no point. The ability to hit obscured targets is one of the joys of the 81 / IDF; it has a mighty big audio / visual firing signature so the det really would not want to be too visible to the bad guys.


Using all of the above, human error "Ham With Cheese B_B?" gets minimised and first round accuracy is now very good, assuming switched on MFCs and CPOs/No1s...but...

81mm is still an area weapon in the indirect role, and you would need a very good crew to achieve "bunker busting" in the direct role.

So, we are left with a single shot disposable type system or a reloadable rifled system firing HE rounds. Javelin or Wombat anyone?
 

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