Delayed firing instructions

#1
Have received a request from the Historic Enquiry Team of PSNI. They have a statement re shooting of a civilian by Army in 1971 that includes reference to "delayed firing instructions". Their suggestion is that it is in some way related to Yellow Card and ask if I can explain
I have never heard the phrase - not that that means a lot - and the idea of delay does not accord with intent of YC. Clegg was example of a delay with his 4th shot.
Anyone here know anything about concept of Delayed Firing Instruction? It is already in public domain so no PSEC etc involvement.
 
#3
Dragstrip said:
The simplest of Google searches led me easily to the following:

http://www.mkbartlett.co.uk/data/0204SAA20-21FR.pdf

Is that what you are talking about?
Had found that and interpreted it to refer to training - cadets, ranges etc. The phrase is apparently in a SIB statement taken following soldier having shot an IRA sniper and PSNI team have associated the term with the Yellow Card.
Thanks for confirming my ability to undertake Google searches though!
 
#4
OldRedCap said:
Dragstrip said:
The simplest of Google searches led me easily to the following:

http://www.mkbartlett.co.uk/data/0204SAA20-21FR.pdf

Is that what you are talking about?
Had found that and interpreted it to refer to training - cadets, ranges etc. The phrase is apparently in a SIB statement taken following soldier having shot an IRA sniper and PSNI team have associated the term with the Yellow Card.
Thanks for confirming my ability to undertake Google searches though!
Not sure what it would have to do with the yellow card, but a delayed FCO refers to a commander giving a partial order, but delaying the command to fire. It doesn't refer specifically to training, and could be applied in this situation if, for example, the commander wanted confirmation that the target was a sniper before giving the command to fire.
 
#6
Tks for interest guys. My/our problem is that I and my guys
were fairly busy in NI 70-72 and the circs of last 2 posters did not
come to our knowledge in connection with a shooting under
Yellow Card incident.
Looks as it will have to be added to other NI 'mysteries' unless anyone
can come up with a specific instance.
 
#8
vvaannmmaann said:
From 1971? That's some delay.
Came from the Historic Enquiry Team. They only investigate 'long ago' stuff. Oldest one they have asked for help on was Aug 1970. Mostly retired Met etc. officers with just a few ex-RUC. Keen and fun to work with blokes of that generation with little of today's PC concerns.
 

old_fat_and_hairy

LE
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#10
vvaannmmaann said:
How reliable are people's memories after this length of time? Or do they rely on documentry evidence,news reels etc?
My memories of that period are sharp and accurate. I can recall every moment of the briefing and deployemen for the internment arrests.
However, I can't remember what I had for supper last night!
 
#11
OF & H I have that self same recall but I cannot remember if I had supper last night never mind what it was. The bit I liked was when they blew the big hole in the wall of Crumlin Road prison without having told the Governor or staff.
Working with HET shows that recall is quite sharp in most people. Given one or two bits, people can dig back and remember what happened next. Not a lot of video etc from those days is used in case it sets off a wrong recall
 
R

Reversionary_Modes

Guest
#13
neildonald said:
like so?

"Target, sniper, my 12 o'clock, 300 yards. Wait Out!"
If you're not standing in front of me, how do I know where your 12 o'clock is? If you are standing in front of me whilst giving me a fire order, you'd best hope I can shoot straight ...
 
#14
neildonald said:
like so?

"Target, sniper, my 12 o'clock, 300 yards. Wait Out!"
Kind of off topic, but this is an example of a shite FCO.

For info of the other poster, "Watch and shoot" is an Individual FCO, not Delayed. This is because the onus of whether to fire or not is on the Individual.

A Delayed FCO is ended with "await my command" instead of saying "Fire". The commander can then simply issue the command "Fire" at the opportune moment whilst the Section already have their weapons to bear on the intended target.

That's enough BS from me sorry.
 
#15
Reversionary_Modes said:
neildonald said:
like so?

"Target, sniper, my 12 o'clock, 300 yards. Wait Out!"
If you're not standing in front of me, how do I know where your 12 o'clock is? If you are standing in front of me whilst giving me a fire order, you'd best hope I can shoot straight ...
It was the VP that threw me, but a quick search shows 'neil' to be a young AAC applicant.
 
#16
The statement in which the phrase is used is that of the shooter. He fired on his own initiative.
Corporal ‘C’ was positioned in an upstairs rear window of a house which afforded him a clear view along Glenpark Street and part of Glenview Street.
After he had been there for about 30 minutes he saw a man standing at the junction of Gracewell Street and Glenview Street, the man was holding a pistol which he was pointing at his position. The man was hiding behind a concrete post but was exposing his left hand side.
The man was illuminated by a nearby street light and Corporal ‘C’ could clearly see the outline of the man. The man fired 1 shot at the Corporal which struck the wall beneath his window.
The man attempted to fire a second shot but his pistol jammed. As he tried to clear the jam he exposed himself further giving the Corporal a clear shot. The Corporal fired 1 shot which struck the man somewhere on his left side. The gunman fell and was immediately dragged away by a number of other unknown men.
The suggestions re fire orders do not seem to jell with this account. The guy who took the statement is unable to explain 'delayed firing instructions' and seems never to have used it.
 
#18
OldRedCap said:
The statement in which the phrase is used is that of the shooter. He fired on his own initiative.
Corporal ‘C’ was positioned in an upstairs rear window of a house which afforded him a clear view along Glenpark Street and part of Glenview Street.
After he had been there for about 30 minutes he saw a man standing at the junction of Gracewell Street and Glenview Street, the man was holding a pistol which he was pointing at his position. The man was hiding behind a concrete post but was exposing his left hand side.
The man was illuminated by a nearby street light and Corporal ‘C’ could clearly see the outline of the man. The man fired 1 shot at the Corporal which struck the wall beneath his window.
The man attempted to fire a second shot but his pistol jammed. As he tried to clear the jam he exposed himself further giving the Corporal a clear shot. The Corporal fired 1 shot which struck the man somewhere on his left side. The gunman fell and was immediately dragged away by a number of other unknown men.
The suggestions re fire orders do not seem to jell with this account. The guy who took the statement is unable to explain 'delayed firing instructions' and seems never to have used it.

That all seems very confusing. After all this time, is someone making a claim?
 
#19
OldRedCap said:
The statement in which the phrase is used is that of the shooter. He fired on his own initiative.
Corporal ... men.
The suggestions re fire orders do not seem to jell with this account. The guy who took the statement is unable to explain 'delayed firing instructions' and seems never to have used it.
Could the "delayed fire instruction" refer to the yellow card itself in that it details the circumstances by which a legitimate target can be defined and provides the authority to fire? The delay would represent the time passage from the issue of the card to the moment of shooting. More accurately, the Yellow Card could be described as an "advance fire instruction."

Not having seen one, I don't know whether the Yellow Card gives authority to each soldier to open fire on his own initiative or whether soldiers must await a decision from their commander. If the former, the Card could be construed as a "Watch and Shoot" instruction, hence my earlier post.
 
#20
Not primarily a question of comp. Those who feel the full facts were not given
at the time can ask for reinvestigation and HET undertake this work. Surprisingly,
not all go on to claim money. Suggestion from Puttees is ingenious but other
info does not support it. An officer positioned the two soldiers but did not give
them instructions re Card or actions on. We maintained good records but World & his
wife have rifled through them. Oh! if only we had had computers.
 

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