Defense Sec. Wanted to Shelve Super Carriers

#1
OK so its from the Stun and still looking for other references....

DEFENCE Secretary Des Browne wanted to shelve an order for two new aircraft carriers, it was claimed last night. But he changed his mind because scrapping it would lose hundreds of jobs in PM Gordon Brown’s seat, a source said. Leaked emails said the £3.8billion cost of HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales was eating into the Forces’ budget.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article536433.ece
 
#2
£3.8billion was eating into their budget? what did they think it was going to do?
 
#3
Another example of poilitically motivated, capital projects eating up all the cash needed for the important stuff in life.
 
#4
Leaked emails said the £3.8billion cost of HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales was eating into the Forces’ budget.
Quite, imagine having to go to the trouble of actually paying for stuff you want. Eating into, my arrse.

Personally, I would rather see some cutting back on expenditure on all those MPs who are eating into Treasury coffers.
 
#5
smartascarrots said:
Leaked emails said the £3.8billion cost of HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales was eating into the Forces’ budget.
Quite, imagine having to go to the trouble of actually paying for stuff you want. Eating into, my arrse.

Personally, I would rather see some cutting back on expenditure on all those MPs who are eating into Treasury coffers.
Git you beat me to it.

They probably can't see the use of them because boats aren't on patrol in Helmand.

They really cannot see five minutes into the future these cnuts can they. I imagine Dangerous Des had a piece of paper in his hand with some "Stats and figures" to the effect of.

Use of Infantry Bns in last 2 years 88%
Use of Air force in last 2 years 60%
Use of Navy in last 2 years 55%

Well that means that we can sack 12% of the army's in Bns. Scrap getting anything new for the RAF as they still have 2/5 to give. We can scrap any new builds for the navy until we're at war with a super power which wont be for years and years because 45% of our ships dont get used.

Not actual figures... I'm just being a bitter tw@t.
 
#7
Bad_Crow said:
They really cannot see five minutes into the future these cnuts can they. I imagine Dangerous Des had a piece of paper in his hand with some "Stats and figures" to the effect of.

Use of Infantry Bns in last 2 years 88%
Use of Air force in last 2 years 60%
Use of Navy in last 2 years 55%

Well that means that we can sack 12% of the army's in Bns. Scrap getting anything new for the RAF as they still have 2/5 to give. We can scrap any new builds for the navy until we're at war with a super power which wont be for years and years because 45% of our ships dont get used.

Not actual figures... I'm just being a bitter tw@t.
I honestly believe that's how they think. It would go something like; soldiers are for soldiering, like civil servants are for paper shuffling. So, as all civil servants are busy, all of the time, all soldiers should be getting shot at all of the time. Any who aren't are an unused resource, so should be cut back to pay for....busy civil servants.

If you're not on ops, you're wasting time...Training? We've trained you once, why we need to train you again?? Families? They knew what they were getting into. Ships? Can't see any from Whitehall. Saw a Spitfire fly past once, so the RAF's obviously still in action. And they were sooo pleased with their new plane. :evil:
 
#8
Leaked this, and lost that, retreat here, and balk at that, fail here and cut that...

Is it me... or is this particular Chancellor's Govt rapidly sinking thanks to the broadside it's recieved in Lords?

They must have waited for that for Yeeeeears!!
 
#9
angular said:
Bad_Crow said:
They really cannot see five minutes into the future these cnuts can they. I imagine Dangerous Des had a piece of paper in his hand with some "Stats and figures" to the effect of.

Use of Infantry Bns in last 2 years 88%
Use of Air force in last 2 years 60%
Use of Navy in last 2 years 55%

Well that means that we can sack 12% of the army's in Bns. Scrap getting anything new for the RAF as they still have 2/5 to give. We can scrap any new builds for the navy until we're at war with a super power which wont be for years and years because 45% of our ships dont get used.

Not actual figures... I'm just being a bitter tw@t.
I honestly believe that's how they think. It would go something like; soldiers are for soldiering, like civil servants are for paper shuffling. So, as all civil servants are busy, all of the time, all soldiers should be getting shot at all of the time. Any who aren't are an unused resource, so should be cut back to pay for....busy civil servants.

If you're not on ops, you're wasting time...Training? We've trained you once, why we need to train you again?? Families? They knew what they were getting into. Ships? Can't see any from Whitehall. Saw a Spitfire fly past once, so the RAF's obviously still in action. And they were sooo pleased with their new plane. :evil:
Now i think you have hit the nail on the head there.

Look at how much the civil servants are fcuking up lately with their stats and figures etc etc. Thats because they can't do their job properely because they trained once YEARS ago. They don't understand the concept of "Lessons learnt in contact" - We need to withdraw to BATUS and Kenya etc in order to pass on knowledge and download information learnt on tours.
 
#10
I was VERY surprised that the boats were ordered at all. I suspected that offering the navy the big carriers was simply a means of keeping the admiralty quiet while the rest of the fleet was decomissioned and the government had absolutely no intention of actually going through with the purchase.

I was interested to hear that they will be built in the PMs constituency. hmm very interesting.

Ski.
 
#11
Started to read this post hoping it would go Defence Sec Wanted to Stack Shelves in Tesco.

To be honest it may as well have. This man should have shoes that are size 20 and a nose that goes HONK.

Jockster
 
#12
"Look at how much the civil servants are fcuking up lately with their stats and figures etc etc. Thats because they can't do their job properely because they trained once YEARS ago. They don't understand the concept of "Lessons learnt in contact" - We need to withdraw to BATUS and Kenya etc in order to pass on knowledge and download information learnt on tours. "

Total tosh - all MOD CS are required to undergo regular training courses in a wide range of areas, not restricted solely to their professional role to keep them current. There is a heavy emphasis on this and those that fail to do so will fail to be promoted.
 
#13
jim30 said:
Total tosh - all MOD CS are required to undergo regular training courses in a wide range of areas, not restricted solely to their professional role to keep them current. There is a heavy emphasis on this and those that fail to do so will fail to be promoted.
Jim it's a shame that this doesn't apply to our elected leaders. I may not be the most edumicated of chaps however even I know if I order something I have to pay for it - eventually.

Jockster
 
#14
CrapSpy said:
Another example of poilitically motivated, capital projects eating up all the cash needed for the important stuff in life.
Problem is with these big capital projects is the lead time. Gone are the days pre and during WWII when you could knock out a destroyer in 6 weeks and a Spitfire in a couple of days. Design and build of an aircraft or warship now takes decades. If you don't have the kit ready, then when it's needed, it's way to late to start ordering then.

The big problem is trying to envisage what kit you're going to need in 10, 20, 30 (and for the case of CVF 40 and 50) years time. That's why warships anyway are bing made big now, to enable them to evolve and change as the requirements change. It was found that the stuff that was built small in the '70s to save cost turned out to be too small to add kit to or alter when the threat or requirement changed.

Not taking away from the fact that land based forces need the right kit now, just saying that these big capital project need to take place, and the current Government has been procrastinating for 10 years about it.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#15
ukdaytona said:
OK so its from the Stun and still looking for other references....

DEFENCE Secretary Des Browne wanted to shelve an order for two new aircraft carriers, it was claimed last night. But he changed his mind because scrapping it would lose hundreds of jobs in PM Gordon Brown’s seat, a source said. Leaked emails said the £3.8billion cost of HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales was eating into the Forces’ budget.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article536433.ece
Was this order not used as the sweetener to offset the writing off (mothballing) of half the RN?
Let the dust settle and then sweep the order under the carpet when there is no-one left in the navy to complain about it?

This is the most dangerous government we have had in power for decades - not only are stumbling over themselves more than the norm, they are playing games that will have consequences long after they have been removed from office.....
 
#16
I should have started a "book" on how long it would take of NuLiebour to bin the carriers. I'm actually surprised the order for the carriers has got this far.
 
#17
DarkBlueLoggie said:
CrapSpy said:
Another example of poilitically motivated, capital projects eating up all the cash needed for the important stuff in life.
Problem is with these big capital projects is the lead time. Gone are the days pre and during WWII when you could knock out a destroyer in 6 weeks and a Spitfire in a couple of days. Design and build of an aircraft or warship now takes decades. If you don't have the kit ready, then when it's needed, it's way to late to start ordering then.

The big problem is trying to envisage what kit you're going to need in 10, 20, 30 (and for the case of CVF 40 and 50) years time. That's why warships anyway are bing made big now, to enable them to evolve and change as the requirements change. It was found that the stuff that was built small in the '70s to save cost turned out to be too small to add kit to or alter when the threat or requirement changed.

Not taking away from the fact that land based forces need the right kit now, just saying that these big capital project need to take place, and the current Government has been procrastinating for 10 years about it.
But why does the main part of the ship have to take so long? Carrier hulls haven't massivily changed shape in the last 40 years or so, as far as I can tell the best shape hull for such a large ship isn't much different from the best fast battleships of WWII. The big flat thing on top is still a big flat thing with a bit of a slope on it. The ship still needs a given amount of space for all the bits that go bang, fuels, water, food, lubs, spare parts, engines, gear box, and all those bits. cabling is still cabling. The different raders are going to go in certain places pretty much all the time since no one sticks a big Air Search rader on the lowest part of the ship. Once you've made your mind up on the mix of AD guns and missiles, you've pretty much sorted out where said things are going to go. In all probablity the missiles aren't going to grow in size so as long as the space for the missiles is big enough for the most likely choices for either short or long range AD then you're sorted. Most Electronics are going to get smaller, not bigger,although more may be added, it's power supply that's going to need space to grow.

So why has it taken 9 years to get to the point where Swiss Des can still think of binning the project?
 
#18
jim30 said:
"Look at how much the civil servants are fcuking up lately with their stats and figures etc etc. Thats because they can't do their job properely because they trained once YEARS ago. They don't understand the concept of "Lessons learnt in contact" - We need to withdraw to BATUS and Kenya etc in order to pass on knowledge and download information learnt on tours. "

Total tosh - all MOD CS are required to undergo regular training courses in a wide range of areas, not restricted solely to their professional role to keep them current. There is a heavy emphasis on this and those that fail to do so will fail to be promoted.
Fair one. So either

A. You are one
B. You were one
C. You know one

Which is good because you will be able to answer me this. Why are "They" persistently getting it wrong and providing dodgy stats probably from 1998 - 2000 which supports sh1t government ideas?

Genuine question not a t1t for tat bitching match.
 
#19
400 jobs (i.e. Bottler votes) for £3.8bn. Just under £10 million per vote.

It would have been far cheaper to rig the postal votes at election time like they do elsewhere.
 
#20
Kitmarlowe said:
DarkBlueLoggie said:
CrapSpy said:
Another example of poilitically motivated, capital projects eating up all the cash needed for the important stuff in life.
Problem is with these big capital projects is the lead time. Gone are the days pre and during WWII when you could knock out a destroyer in 6 weeks and a Spitfire in a couple of days. Design and build of an aircraft or warship now takes decades. If you don't have the kit ready, then when it's needed, it's way to late to start ordering then.

The big problem is trying to envisage what kit you're going to need in 10, 20, 30 (and for the case of CVF 40 and 50) years time. That's why warships anyway are bing made big now, to enable them to evolve and change as the requirements change. It was found that the stuff that was built small in the '70s to save cost turned out to be too small to add kit to or alter when the threat or requirement changed.

Not taking away from the fact that land based forces need the right kit now, just saying that these big capital project need to take place, and the current Government has been procrastinating for 10 years about it.
But why does the main part of the ship have to take so long? Carrier hulls haven't massivily changed shape in the last 40 years or so, as far as I can tell the best shape hull for such a large ship isn't much different from the best fast battleships of WWII. The big flat thing on top is still a big flat thing with a bit of a slope on it. The ship still needs a given amount of space for all the bits that go bang, fuels, water, food, lubs, spare parts, engines, gear box, and all those bits. cabling is still cabling. The different raders are going to go in certain places pretty much all the time since no one sticks a big Air Search rader on the lowest part of the ship. Once you've made your mind up on the mix of AD guns and missiles, you've pretty much sorted out where said things are going to go. In all probablity the missiles aren't going to grow in size so as long as the space for the missiles is big enough for the most likely choices for either short or long range AD then you're sorted. Most Electronics are going to get smaller, not bigger,although more may be added, it's power supply that's going to need space to grow.

So why has it taken 9 years to get to the point where Swiss Des can still think of binning the project?
Because that's how long it took to 'de-risk' the project. :wink:
 

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