Defenders: TD5 vs 2.4 & 2.2 TDCi - is anyone driving one?

4(T)

LE
( composed from a stage 2 trench with full overhead cover; awaiting intense incoming Japanese bombardment....)


I've been shopping around for a Defender 110. Ideally I was after a low mileage XS version, with some of the useful upgrades and not too much of the urban warrior bling. Apart from satisfying my own irrational LR craving, I'm beginning to suspect Defenders might go into negative depreciation once production ceases next year and thus become a profitable investment.

I'd been considering some reasonable late TD5 versions, but then couldn't help noticing that the 2.4/2.2 Puma-engined recent production Defenders are (a) a step up in build quality from previous models (albeit starting from near the bottom of the quality ladder...) (b) finally, after 50 years, have a decent centre console and heater system (c) have a 6-speed box.

The Land Rover forums are of course full of old gits who swear blind that the last true Defender was a Series III, and that the modern Puma jobs are an abomination, etc. However, I have an old Transit with with the 2.4, and its a really good engine - for a Transit, that is. Given that Land Rover was forced to do some engineering to get the powertrain to fit, I wonder if this has finally created a decent modern-ish vehicle?

Anyone here with driving experience of the TD5 and a 2.4 or 2.2. Puma (i.e. current models)?

Just interested to hear if there is any significant/ noticeable difference - over a TD5 - in power, torque, gear spacing, fuel economy, etc?
 
I had the 2.4 110 (and a 300TDI 90)

The heater system really works still puts more heat passenger side but that works well with the Mrs. Be aware though the lower vent aims at the handbrake which can get bloody hot ( then touches your leg)

Driving responsive nippy (for a Landy) reasonably quiet and refined, still handles like the proverbial pig on a skateboard (but without lowering the suspension that wont change*)

Gearing 6 speed
1st is short and I mean short so are 2nd and 3rd, going from 2nd (pulling off on flat) to 4th across a small roundabout to avoid screaming the balls off it, is not uncommon.

In heavy Urban traffic there is just to much cycling through gears, this led to mine being sold off my hand couldn't handle this (accident injury probably not an issue for you). The anti stall really doesn't like you getting to low on the revs so leaving it in 3rd and abusing doesn't work.

Until you get used to it the anti stall can result in you stalling on pulling off.

Economy No better than the 300 TDI, but blame the Euro emission's reducing crap that kills fuel economy - that's a complaint with Transit owners too.


The only thing I didn't like is from an off road point of view - No wading plugs or breather kit available and the clutch is exposed to crap some horror stories there.

Would I buy another - No I want a 110 / 130 300TDI - No Electronics, runs on veggy oil.
Do I think its any good - yes.


* All those that point out how (insert Jap Job) handles better fail to notice that the 4x4 offroad community always lift the suspension, resulting in comparable handling to the Defender (which comes pre lifted in effect)
 
Do not buy a TDCi
An absolute piece of crap of an engine. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you one or just plain talking bollox.

The TD5 on the other hand is one of the best diesels ever produced.

You want a Defender, buy carefully and buy a TD5
 

4(T)

LE
Thanks both.

I had heard about the short shifting on the TDCi gearbox. Sounds like they didn't change much from the way its optimised for a transit (my transit has no rev range, but accelerates on torque alone. It has exactly the same performance whether it is empty or has a ton payload on board...).

Looks like a TD5 then. I guess the hobbyists with deep pockets will be doing bulkhead conversion to put the TDCi dashboard into TD5s.
 
Not a fan then Jagman2,


Of Defenders, yes (I have a 200TDi one as a toy)

Of anything with a Transit engine in, No.

I'm a transport manager with responsibility for a medium size fleet of vans and Transits have caused me no end of grief in recent years. Mechanically utter dross, really poorly built and useless once they have a few miles on them

I had a TD5 Discovery that I abused without mercy for years and I never put a spanner on the engine. Broke a few propshafts and the odd diff but engine and box wise I rate the TD5 very, very highly.
 
I meant of the TDCI,

Fair enough mine was sold with about 25 000 on the clock, perhaps just as well.

In the time I had it I enjoyed it, it was a far better drive than my other Landies .

Ive never driven the TD5, but asides from a few horror stories in the early days, I gather they are rock solid.

Myself Im a 300 TDI man (although the prat that put the water pump at the top needs slapping)
 

303rifleman

Old-Salt
I have 2 x 1999 TD5 Landrovers a discovery 237,300 odd miles and a 110 Defender on 190,000 odd, Both in their time have had new head gasket. The 110 still has the exhaust on it form when I got the vehicle in 2004. TD5 Disco last year cost me £85 to put it through MOT inc the MOT fee. Defender go's in Thursday will keep you posted I change oil and filters myself and only use top notch Mobil 1 oil and genuine filters.
 

2/51

LE
Local Landy independent garage warned me off anything newer than a TD5. He has a bit of a cash cow going on with reconditioned 2.2 and 2.4 engines for both Freelander 2's due to the camshaft issues, and with defenders. At nearly £3k a pop, and he is doing one a week, no wonder he has just bought a new Rangie Sport!

I did look at the price of a new defender 110 CSW...astronomical is all I can say! Totally unjustifiable considering what you get. I love Defenders, I have a 110 sat outside just now, but I cannot believe people pay that sort of money for a new one.

The local 4x4 dealer has a new 90 CSW sat on the forecourt for £30k!
 

4(T)

LE
Another trawl of the forums seems to show that the TDCi has plenty of fans. Perhaps thats the new generation of urban owners who can drop a lot of cash at a main dealer every time there is a hiccup?


A couple of main dealers have told me that the ludicrous new prices are Land Rover's attempt to restrict sales ahead of the wind-down of production. However it seems that the opposite is happening - a rush to invest in the vehicles before they become extinct. Apparently the wait list is still three or four months.


Looking at the crazy prices being paid already for mint or low mileage 200/300 TDis and even TD5s, it seems certain that all Defender models will end up commanding collectors' prices (especially in the coming Green fairytale land where these evil emitting beasts will have been banned....).


In fact, I have myself discussed with the wife whether we should buy a new 110 simply as an investment - ie buy a brand new one, SORN it with no mileage, and store it for a few years. I'd guess that we'd easily profit on it.


p.s. surely its not the same 2.2/2.4 Puma engines in the current Freelander 2 as well? I doubt there is the room to fit the engine. My 2007 Freelander presumably has a T4/5 variant in it - it certainly bears no resemblance to the Puma engine.
 
p.s. surely its not the same 2.2/2.4 Puma engines in the current Freelander 2 as well? I doubt there is the room to fit the engine. My 2007 Freelander presumably has a T4/5 variant in it - it certainly bears no resemblance to the Puma engine.

No, different engines altogether.

The Freelander uses the 2.2 PSA DW12 of Peugeot/Citroen decent

The Defender uses a 2.2 Ford Duratorq similar to the Mondeo engine

The Duratorq is pants, the DW12 far less pants.
 

4(T)

LE
No, different engines altogether.

The Freelander uses the 2.2 PSA DW12 of Peugeot/Citroen decent

The Defender uses a 2.2 Ford Duratorq similar to the Mondeo engine

The Duratorq is pants, the DW12 far less pants.


I didn't realise you could fit a Duratorq into a car; its quite a tall engine - criticised for that reason for not fitting well in a Defender.

I suppose one advantage of the Puma engine is that there will be a huge amount of industry expertise with it, as well as a large after market tuning potential.
 
I didn't realise you could fit a Duratorq into a car; its quite a tall engine - criticised for that reason for not fitting well in a Defender.

I suppose one advantage of the Puma engine is that there will be a huge amount of industry expertise with it, as well as a large after market tuning potential.


The 2.2 is a different engine to the 2.4

The big problem with Ford TDCi's in general is that they don't have a long life.
They are great when they are new but once they start putting a few miles on them they lose performance and reliability becomes a big issue.

All the Transits we ran suffer the same problems, engine wise (other issues like body flex and popping windscreens not being relevant here) performance drops of dramatically once they hit 80-90 thousand miles. Fuel pumps drop to bits and wiring harnesses corrode at an alarming rate

Life expectancy for a well maintained TDCi is 200,000 miles. By then it will have a shitload of money spent on it and it will become unfixable.
I have a 2.4 Duratorq Transit sat in the yard (its a spare refrigerated van so worth having sitting around even if it works one day a month)
It has 330,000 miles on it and its absolutely fooked. Its been fully rebuilt 3 times, had 4 cylinder heads half a dozen fuel pumps, 6 head gaskets and a shedload of other repairs.
Its an exceptionally good one, it's siblings lasted 200k, 230k and 190k. All of them cost thousands a year to maintain (and I do mean thousands.) once they hit the 100,000 mile mark the average repair costs on engine and box alone can be expected to be £2500 plus per year.

There is no such thing as a perfect engine but the TDCi ranks pretty low when it comes to maintenance costs and serviceability.
Might be an unpopular opinion with Transit fans but that's my experience anyway.

I spend several hundred grand a year of somebody else's money on vans and there is no way on earth I would spend that money on anything with a Ford TDCi of any variety
 
Thanks, Jagman you have just made my week.

I part exed the TDCI Defender for an X type (2.2 Sport) .

When I came to France I could only afford to bring and keep 1 car, either the jag or the 90, in the end the 90 won out because :
Local Roads are Crap
Living well out in the sticks
I would cry (or commit murder) after the umpteenth Frenchman had scraped past / dinged it with doors in the carpark / nudge parked - things like that on a Landrover ive already dropped of sand dunes / scraped on mountain sides aren't an issue.
I am very attached to the Landrover*.

However on a long Journey, when Ive got past the point of enjoying the Landy drive and just feel stiff wet and deafened I miss the Jag. You have just made me feel a whole lot better about letting it go.

A 2nd thanks because I was considering buying a Mondeo .

* No pun intended
 
Thanks, Jagman you have just made my week.


My pleasure!

I'm a dyed in the wool Land Rover fan, when I got rid of my Range Rover a couple of months ago I bough an ancient 110 to have just for the fun of it.

I replaced the Range Rover with a Jaguar XF diesel (and yes I know the engine is built in a Ford factory) and its probably the wisest move I've ever made car wise.
 
My pleasure!

I'm a dyed in the wool Land Rover fan, when I got rid of my Range Rover a couple of months ago I bough an ancient 110 to have just for the fun of it.
/QUOTE]

If you intend fitting a winch, fit an emergency cut out switch in the power supply as well.
 
In all the years I've had Land Rover's I have only ever used a winch for self rescue once, when I smashed a diff and only had front wheel drive. Every other time has been dragging somebody else out

But yes, if I fit an electric winch I will but a cut off switch in!
 
Sorry if that's a teaching you to suck eggs thing, but for some reason I have a bee in my bonnet about that.
 
Couldn't agree more with Jagman,
We have run a fleet of the new Ford transits 2.2 tdci (2006) onwards and Land Rover defenders (all years) for the MOD and they are as bad as described if not worse. The reliability after the first year takes a massive dive in the shape of cam chains stretching and snapping, high pressure fuel pumps (metering valves) failing after 50,000 miles, the Ford parts is Continental at £1200 per unit. You can buy the same pumps on Ebay for £400, the clutches fail (disintegrate), electrical problems all over, the wing mirrors smash the front door windows if they over stretch in high winds, exhaust DPF filters clogg up and won't regenerate.... the list is endless. Ford Transits really do cost £0000's to keep on the road per year after the first year or two and the bills are endless. It's the same old story when people come to buying vehicles, they get in, it looks nice and there are loads of buttons.... they buy it. I hope people read these reviews, because the Land Rover TDCi engine from Ford is worse than the Ford version, I'm sure they are not made in the same factory. The only good thing about the 2.4 TDCi engine was the Denso injection pump, because by the time the 2.2 came in the Continental pump was very unreliable. The 2.4 engines wear out in very low mileage, around 40000 to 60000. The tell tale sign is it's a slow starter, eventually it will be impossible to start. If you take the head off you will be able to feel the wear on the cylinder bores (let alone get a micrometer on it). The cam chains are the other big one, same as transits, they stretch and snap. The tell tale sign with them is the engine sounds like a drill going through concrete if you've ever used a hammer drill. Turbo's are common failures, the banjo bolt for the oil feed into the top of the turbo is too small, not enough oil gets into it for a stop start engine, if you run it on motorways you will have less trouble, but you would never take a defender on a motorway. The story is similar with the TDCi transfer boxes, the spline shaft coming from the gearbox will strip and leave you stranded. This is a Rover part and does not affect the transits obviously. We have great experience with Land Rover here going back to TDi defenders, and they are the only ones you could call reliable. Anything after, by comparison has taken a massive dive. We still run TDi Rovers with few problems, but even new defenders differentials don't last, the gears just wear out and on some the annuls wheel strips its teeth. Land Rover, since 1999 has taken a massive dive in quality and if you have worked day in day out, one on one with rovers throughout this period you will see how bad they are. The TDi's had a few things going for them but there after nothing is worth buying. I know guys go on about the Jap stuff being Land Rover wannabees but even back in 1990 Land Rover was no match for the likes of Toyota Hilux, even by the mid 90's the likes of the Shoguns and L200 were well ahead of Rover. You saw the Hilux on top gear right? they are all like that, they don't rust, the engines last for ever and even after decades everything works (even the electric windows, yes a Hilux had electric windows and air-con in 1991). If I could say one thing it's buy anything but Land Rover.
 

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