Defence spending row as chiefs spend £730 million on taxis,

#1
From to-days Telegraph:

The row over defence spending on vehicles for troops on the frontline has been reignited after it was disclosed the MoD spent £730 million on meals, hotels and taxis for civil servants in a 12-month period.
It is more than twice as much as was spent on vehicles for servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The figures emerged two weeks after Cpl Sarah Bryant and three members of the SAS were killed when their lightly protected Snatch Land Rover was destroyed by a landmine in Afghanistan.

The Snatch Land Rover was brought into service in the 1970s for those serving in Northern Ireland but critics say the vehicles do not offer enough protection for troops in Afghanistan and should be replaced

Gravy Train
 
#3
SkiCarver said:
2.25% of defence budget. how many civil servants are there in the mod?
More than there are soldiers?

msr
 
#5
It would be interesting to see if any of those hotel stays were in the vicinity of an officers/sergeants mess, or other suitable military accomodation. It's always the budgets people making us stay in transit accom while they large it up in the nearest hotel. Apparently mess accom isn't up to their standard.......
 
#7
western said:
From to-days Telegraph:

The row over defence spending on vehicles for troops on the frontline has been reignited after it was disclosed the MoD spent £730 million on meals, hotels and taxis for civil servants in a 12-month period.
It is more than twice as much as was spent on vehicles for servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The figures emerged two weeks after Cpl Sarah Bryant and three members of the SAS were killed when their lightly protected Snatch Land Rover was destroyed by a landmine in Afghanistan.

The Snatch Land Rover was brought into service in the 1970s for those serving in Northern Ireland but critics say the vehicles do not offer enough protection for troops in Afghanistan and should be replaced

Gravy Train
Note that the article said
”Telegraph” said:
MoD spent £730 million on meals, hotels and taxis for civil servants in a 12-month period.
then later on it says
”Telegraph” said:
expenditure of £730 million on "hotels, restaurants and transportation"
Transportation is a much broader thing than taxies.

Also the article compares this with
”Telegraph” said:
£330 million spent on "motor vehicles and parts".
Does that include armoured vehicles? I suspect not.

Now, I am in favour of bashing MOD spending priorities, but let's get the facts straight first.
 
#8
Mobat said:
Snip

Also the article compares this with
”Telegraph” said:
£330 million spent on "motor vehicles and parts".
Does that include armoured vehicles? I suspect not.

Now, I am in favour of bashing MOD spending priorities, but let's get the facts straight first.
Well thats enough for 4000 Range Rovers a year, or 10,000 BMW 5 series with full maintenance including tyres and fuel for 20,000 miles per year per car! All bought outright. So lets get the facts right :roll:
 
#9
western said:
From to-days Telegraph:

The row over defence spending on vehicles for troops on the frontline has been reignited after it was disclosed the MoD spent £730 million on meals, hotels and taxis for civil servants in a 12-month period.
It is more than twice as much as was spent on vehicles for servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The FOI request was for travel and allowances paid out by the MOD and covers not only the snival service HRMS claims but also JPA claims made by all three services. All I can say is that welcome to the world of 'actuals' and using third party booking services to rip the MOD off. I wonder how many times people have found the MOD rate is actually greater than the price you can get by booking a hotel or hiring a car direct!
 
#10
Before the outrage bus gets worked up into full flow, let me try and put a few facts out there. I am a MOD CS and I am an officer in the Reserves as well – so I’m seeing this from both sides.
The article is deliberately provocative and paints an image that all of us CS sit there in air conditioned luxury, swilling wine and living it up in fine hotels. If only that were true! The CS travel standards are pretty strict – you have a maximum cap of between £70 - £110 per night for your hotel, depending on the city you’re in, which is booked centrally . To deviate from this, you need to get a lot of senior people to sign it off and frankly it doesn’t happen often without bloody good reason.
What does £70-£110 get you? Not much! The CS mandated standards for booking a hotel is an ensuite room with desk, TV and secure fittings for personal safety. In practise this works out at roughly a travellodge – budget hotel rate. Those of you who travel often will realise that £100 won’t get you much in the hotel world nowadays. Overseas, particularly where the exchange rate is weaker you may get a better hotel – although this is usually down to luck!
The idea of quaffing fine wine is also fantasy – we get to claim back actual for expenses, which include ½ a bottle of wine, or a pint of beer when staying overnight somewhere. Trust me that these expenses do get scrutinised and if you come in above your estimate on the costs form, you’ve got a lot of explaining and disciplinary action ahead of you.
As for “business class flights” – I wish! Trying to get business class travel is very difficult indeed – the only time you get it is for a flight over 7 hours long, when you’re working the next day. Otherwise you go economy. The MOD is extremely strict on business class flights now – so its very much the exception to get it.
As for the idea that we should all stay in messes –absolutely disagree with that one. A mess is a home for someone in a unit, to an outsider it is usually a very cold and intimidating place indeed. The furniture is poor, the facilities are dire and as soon as the inhabitants (if they deign to speak with you) realise that you are a CS, then you are in for a prolonged “CS are scum who hate the forces and you are to blame for all that is wrong with the system rant”. Add the draconian dress rules – I was once bollocked for removing my suit jacket in the height of summer to eat dinner at the RE mess in chatham, and you have an environment where CS feel very uneasy. Don’t forget that to many, the idea of mess facilities makes them uncomfortable- to you its part of a lifestyle that you signed up for. To CS, who didn’t chose a career in the forces, it is a very unattractive prospect indeed.
Finally, before you assume that all CS live the high life, while poor forces people suffer in squalor- I’d suggest that some of the worst abuses I’ve seen of the travel budget have come from serving forces personnel...
 
#11
WhiteHorse said:
Mobat said:
Snip

Also the article compares this with
”Telegraph” said:
£330 million spent on "motor vehicles and parts".
Does that include armoured vehicles? I suspect not.

Now, I am in favour of bashing MOD spending priorities, but let's get the facts straight first.
Well thats enough for 4000 Range Rovers a year, or 10,000 BMW 5 series with full maintenance including tyres and fuel for 20,000 miles per year per car! All bought outright. So lets get the facts right :roll:
If certain reports are to be believed, 330 mill would purchase between 462 and 561 Mastiffs.....
 
#12
The usual outrage from the telegraph, the figure is for the entire MoD and i'm pretty amazed they come out with us spending less than £365 million on vehicles in the last year, considering we've put in Jackal, Mastiff and so on, plus the upkeep and modification of current vehicles and additional support vehicles, this isn't including the budgets for projects such as FRES, OUVS and so on either.
 
#13
jim30 said:
Before the outrage bus gets worked up into full flow, let me try and put a few facts out there. I am a MOD CS and I am an officer in the Reserves as well – so I’m seeing this from both sides.
The article is deliberately provocative and paints an image that all of us CS sit there in air conditioned luxury, swilling wine and living it up in fine hotels. If only that were true! The CS travel standards are pretty strict – you have a maximum cap of between £70 - £110 per night for your hotel, depending on the city you’re in, which is booked centrally . To deviate from this, you need to get a lot of senior people to sign it off and frankly it doesn’t happen often without bloody good reason.
What does £70-£110 get you? Not much! The CS mandated standards for booking a hotel is an ensuite room with desk, TV and secure fittings for personal safety. In practise this works out at roughly a travellodge – budget hotel rate. Those of you who travel often will realise that £100 won’t get you much in the hotel world nowadays. Overseas, particularly where the exchange rate is weaker you may get a better hotel – although this is usually down to luck!
The idea of quaffing fine wine is also fantasy – we get to claim back actual for expenses, which include ½ a bottle of wine, or a pint of beer when staying overnight somewhere. Trust me that these expenses do get scrutinised and if you come in above your estimate on the costs form, you’ve got a lot of explaining and disciplinary action ahead of you.
As for “business class flights” – I wish! Trying to get business class travel is very difficult indeed – the only time you get it is for a flight over 7 hours long, when you’re working the next day. Otherwise you go economy. The MOD is extremely strict on business class flights now – so its very much the exception to get it.
As for the idea that we should all stay in messes –absolutely disagree with that one. A mess is a home for someone in a unit, to an outsider it is usually a very cold and intimidating place indeed. The furniture is poor, the facilities are dire and as soon as the inhabitants (if they deign to speak with you) realise that you are a CS, then you are in for a prolonged “CS are scum who hate the forces and you are to blame for all that is wrong with the system rant”. Add the draconian dress rules – I was once bollocked for removing my suit jacket in the height of summer to eat dinner at the RE mess in chatham, and you have an environment where CS feel very uneasy. Don’t forget that to many, the idea of mess facilities makes them uncomfortable- to you its part of a lifestyle that you signed up for. To CS, who didn’t chose a career in the forces, it is a very unattractive prospect indeed.
Finally, before you assume that all CS live the high life, while poor forces people suffer in squalor- I’d suggest that some of the worst abuses I’ve seen of the travel budget have come from serving forces personnel...
So CS find Mess accomodation uncomfortable and intimidating? If you're looking for sympathy for these poor little lambs, you know where to find it...

In the dictionary. Between Sh1t and Syphalis. :twisted:
 
#14
western said:
The Snatch Land Rover was brought into service in the 1970s for those serving in Northern Ireland but critics say the vehicles do not offer enough protection for troops in Afghanistan and should be replaced
SNATCH didn't come into service until about 1994. SNATCH 2 (the one being used in Iraq and Afghanistan) didn't come into service until about 2000.
 
#15
"So CS find Mess accomodation uncomfortable and intimidating? If you're looking for sympathy for these poor little lambs, you know where to find it..." mainly because arrogant pricks like yourself think we're the root of all evil - I like to drink somewhere where I'm not seen to be the anti christ, just because I work for the MOD...
 
#16
jim30 said:
Assorted drivel...
I was going to pick holes in your post but - honestly - what's the point? You and we obviously live on completely different planets. The fact that MOD civil servants consider service accommodation beneath them and yet expect squaddies to put up with the same tells you everything you need to know...

But of course 'we signed up for it' :roll:
 
#17
No I don't consider it beneath me - I've spent years of my life living in messes. I'm making the point that forces personnel sign up for a lifestyle - Cs sign up for a job. Messes are unwelcoming, hostile to strangers - particularly civilians and are generally poor accommodation. I'd love to see things improve with living standards, we're slowly getting there - but it doesnt mean I'd chose to stay in it.
 
#18
jim30 said:
"So CS find Mess accomodation uncomfortable and intimidating? If you're looking for sympathy for these poor little lambs, you know where to find it..." mainly because arrogant pricks like yourself think we're the root of all evil - I like to drink somewhere where I'm not seen to be the anti christ, just because I work for the MOD...
Jim30. If big companies can get central booking systems with £65 a night rooms including breakfast why can't the MoD?
 
#19
I have found where the figures came from
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications...php?content=10.1091&date=2007-09-26&type=html

Interestingly they are 2005/06, so of limited relevance to what we are spending now.

On vehicles there are 2 entries: Motor Vehicles & Parts £330 million and Wholesale, Retail & Repair of Motor Vehicles £180 million. And I still suspect that Weapons & Ammunition £1,030 million includes at least some AFVs.

Here is an interesting link for what we are spending on specialist armour for Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...86-mastiff-ppv-cougar-vehicles-updated-02529/
 
#20
70 - 110 quid!!!

Ive been out 3 years but the rate for soldiers overnighting in hotels then was 56 quid IIRC!!

The only stipulation you need for anyone for overnighting is that it has 4 walls, a roof and a bed. Why need a desk....a laptop is called a laptop for a reason, or have the CS all gone for 'notebooks' to get out of that one!

I got a cracking night in a brand new hotel in MK a while back for 65 quid including breakfast and parking. Normal room rate was 120 quid but after a little mouse-work on the wondrous internet I managed to save nearly half of that for fizzies and food that night.
 

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