Defeating the Land Mine Threat

#1
We are purchasing more and more armoured vehicles to protect against bigger and bigger mines (a very good thing) yet still we receive casualties. I would think that the pre-detonation of mines may help save more of the boys and girls and cause less damage to the vehicles.

We have a world leading capability used against the threat of Passive Infra Red Improvised Explosive Devices (PIRIED's) but what of mines ?

There are devices in use and the MOD are to receive the Buffalo for route clearance of any mines/IED's that are found. What of the unfound buried mines ?
The Danes have the Hydrema mine flail vehicle in Helmand which can clear the open expanses. Various MBT's and APC's can be fitted with Mine Ploughs and Mine Rollers can also be fitted to smaller vehicles and would be better suited on the tracks and paths around the Afghan villages.

Are we using something ? If not, why not ? What else can be adapted or modified.

I don't know the best solution but I think it's well worth a discussion.
 

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#5
Argee2007 said:
That's not really a discussion you can have on here.
Not trying to divulge sensitive info. Is there something we could do to prevent further casualties ? Hobart's funnies are well known, could we use them in current ops ?
 
#7
Depends on the amount of vehicles in total. More than one vehicle suitably equipped maybe ? My reason for this discussion is about do a bit more to prevent further casualties after all.
Running about in full CBRN IPE wouldn't be practical but when exposed to that kind of threat, it's a lifesaver !
 
S

swampmonster

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#8
arfah said:
Argee2007 said:
That's not really a discussion you can have on here.
Not trying to divulge sensitive info. Is there something we could do to prevent further casualties ? Hobart's funnies are well known, could we use them in current ops ?

Yes cos they worked...The Crap and flail and the other worked a treat...but let us be honest..the dont cost enough to use now... :roll:
 
#11
arfah said:
Is she reusable after each contact ? Shame.
To paraphrase the million doller man

"We have the technolagy, we can rebuild her . But i dont actualy want to..."
 
#12
arfah said:
Argee2007 said:
That's not really a discussion you can have on here.
Not trying to divulge sensitive info. Is there something we could do to prevent further casualties ? Hobart's funnies are well known, could we use them in current ops ?
Hobart's funnies were intended to cross a few hundred metres of mine field with acceptable casualties. They were not intended to operate for hundreds of kilometres or to make it totally safe.

Other problems are that flails and ploughs tear up the ground and are useless against deeply buried command detonated mines.
 
#13
The Buffalo has been used by the American EOD Teams only, it isn't a mine clearance or detection vehicle; it will certainly be able to be used on routes to 'prove' that they are clear of land mines but is not a clearance vehicle, with the added on kit it is virtually IED/EFP Proof, the only vehicle currently out there that is I believe?

The Mine Protected Vehicles such as the Buffalo are all based on the South African vehicles such as the Casspir/Mamba/Puma, which to date are still the safest troop carrying vehicles out there, for the British Government to simply 'Up Armour' all our snatches is a scandal! they aren't mine protected and will not provide the kind of excellent protection a vehicle such as the Casspir can protect, these vehicles have an all round armoured 'V' Shaped Hull and are designed to take the blast from a double stack of 5kg in HE Anti-Tank Mines, the snatch on the other hand?!!!!!

A Casspir can be provided right now @ $125k per fully refurbished vehicle, while the American Buffalo currently comes in at over the $Million mark, I have no idea what the Up-Armoured snatches are going at in $, anyone?

If anyone here is seriously interested in refurbished Casspirs or new Springbuks/Pumas then PM me, they are life savers and ARE Mine Proof!

I will emphasize though, there are no vehicles available for carrying troops at normal speeds and through towns etc. (narrow roads) that are 100% EFP Proof, the only one that comes close is the Buffalo, but with it's added all round protective 'cage' it is MASSIVE...

Casspirs with a complex sub surface detection system on the front of them connected to a computer have and are being used in several African Countries for checking roads and routes for buried landmines, but this is a commercial venture and is VERY slow and methodical and requires deminers to follow up each reading; the Military need something much faster, the Flails are not the answer as they are VERY slow travelling at around 1km? per hour and traditionally have always been used for short Military breaches and for proving large areas of land such as the ranges at Glamoc, Bosnia etc. a Very slow process; unfortunately there is still no fast and definite method for discovering and clearing landmines, the Government should look at MPV's if it really gives a damn about it's men and women on the ground, how many more injuries and deaths will it take to convince them! they quite happily donate billions to India each year to help their 'poor' even when that Country is sending Rockets into space!!! yet it cannot provide it's soldiers on the ground (that IT sent) on the frontline, with adequate vehicles...

Are we in 2008 AD or BC!!!
 
#14
You'd think QinetiQ or some other Boffins organisation would have come up with a solution by now.

We need ideas too !
 
#15
arfah said:
You'd think QinetiQ or some other Boffins organisation would have come up with a solution by now.

We need ideas too !
If someone does in the future they or their Company will be very rich indeed! for now, unfortunately the best way of locating, disarming/defuzing or destroying landmines in a Theatre of Ops is the Sapper on the ground, used in conjuction at times (when the area is considered Low Risk but with a small chance of suspected mines) with EDD's (Explosive Detection Dogs).

Routes can be 'proved' to a certain extent by sending Mine Protected Vehicles along them but under cover of Infantry/Helicopters and other Arms. The Buffalo with it's IED protection would be an ideal candidate for this role, 2 or 3 sent ahead of vehicle patrols but under full protection would provide a better screen/chance for those lesser armoured vehicles following up, rather than taking the risk with such vehicles taking the lead.
 
#17
Looks like a good vehicle based on the SA 'V' Shaped Hull MPV's; would be interesting to see them prove in tests about the vehicle being able to withstand EFP attacks, that's quite a statement that could drop them in the mire if they were unfortunate enough to be hit by one, the armour looks standard, probably B7+ which is not capable of defeating an EFP detonated at its' optimum stand off distance; an example is the Yugoslavian TMRP-6 Anti-Tank mine that was deployed throughout Bosnia, we received MPV's as the RE EOD Dets and each vehicle was fitted with a 1 1/2 Ton Ceramic layered plate that the REME lads bolted on under our vehicles, they were designed specifically to defeat the TMRP-6 which when initiated can send a shaped charge through 63mm of standard armour plate at an optimum stand off distance of 8oomm, hence the reason the Tilt Rods that could be fitted on top were 800mm in length.

I think the manufacturers who designed the Dingo should alter their statement to something like "has additional protection from standard armoured vehicles to provide better protection from IED's"

I wouldn't have thought their standard APV would have the neccessary armour below to withstand any large IED or double/triple stacked Anti-Tank mine, but I may be wrong.
 
#18
I like the idea of an extra set of wheels fitted to the front. They would be heavy, perhaps solid metal and the width would be only slightly greater than the vehicles own tyres. This would counter uneven ground as it would fit into the ruts left on x-country type roads. Steering would be by a jockey wheel type fitting. Hopefully not like a supermarket trolley though.

The sole purpose is to detonate a landmine before the main body is affected. Thereby causing less damage and casualties.

No doubt, this will have drawbacks too. Retiring to the cupboard under the stairs, awaiting incoming...
 
#19
BigRed99 said:
Gundulph said:
with the added on kit it is virtually IED/EFP Proof, the only vehicle currently out there that is I believe?
The boxhead's Dingo-2 is also a very good option
Dingo2 is still a prototype, not in service but has been purchased by the boxheads.

The Germans and Belgians were both using Dingo 1's in Kabul. They looked very cramped inside, especially as one seat was removed for the comms kit. They do look ally.
 
#20
How about route recces using TI to detect recently dug holes near routes and laid command wires? UAVs could certainly do this.
A flail is good for surface and shallow buried mines, but any one seeing the threat would rig one up to a much larger charge/bomb designed to take out the vehicle. Whilst it is all very well getting new vehicles no vehicle is completely impervious to ied bearing in mind some are made from old artillery shells and bombs which contain significantly more explosive than a couple of double stacked mines, plus the concussion would probably kill the crew even if the vehicle was intact.
 

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