Deepcut revisited

Fundamentally - having run a large training establishment - it was all about resources. No amount of leadership, innovation or sheer determination could make up for a lack of resources. I for one spent loads of time waving my well-thumbed copy of DAHLI/Blake under the noses of anyone who was off message and as a result did better than we would otherwise have done.

Even then I was 26 (yep 26) NCOs down on the recommended ratios - and that was in 2010.
 
Fundamentally - having run a large training establishment - it was all about resources. No amount of leadership, innovation or sheer determination could make up for a lack of resources. I for one spent loads of time waving my well-thumbed copy of DAHLI/Blake under the noses of anyone who was off message and as a result did better than we would otherwise have done.

Even then I was 26 (yep 26) NCOs down on the recommended ratios - and that was in 2010.
Nicholas Blake made 34 separate recommendations (the last of which, topically, was that no public inquiry was necessary) and I think your experience falls under 10*. Out of interest, how many of those instructors you did have arrived having already done their PET (11**)? In my experience it was precious few, which just added to the burden of maintaining ratios.

I couldn't help noticing that the DIO stranglehold on infra maintenance effectively nadgers all hope of meeting 8*** too.


*Recommendation 10: ATRA should require all its training regiments to identify the supervisory ratios it needs to train future generations of trainees in accordance with the effective duty of care principles outlined in this Report. Those ratios should be taken as the necessary minimum, in the absence of any subsequent comprehensive risk assessment to revise them.

**Recommendation 11: Instructors must receive essential training in how they are to achieve the tasks they are to meet before they take up their post. A tour in a training regiment should be recognised as a difficult and demanding job, leading to enhanced career prospects.

***Recommendation 8: ATRA should maintain a regular audit of its training estate:
(i) It must be satisfied that it has provided decent, safe, and appropriate facilities for its personnel where the needs for private life and personal development are catered for as well as their military training.
(ii) The physical and psychological environment should combine to inspire and motivate the trainee.
(iii) If it does not, ATRA must immediately plan to redress this.
 
How many COs in the day managed to be awarded OBEs etc? In My view all of them should have been sacked for not fighting the corner to retain essential staff. Put all your no hope shiite in one place and that was the result. REME were guilty of this big time, we had a chance to weed out the wakners but instead gave the good guys the opportunity to jump ship into civ div which many of them did. Deepcut was a disaster, there was no training for staff on how to deal with different sexes because believe me treating all as equals is not workable, anybody who has sons and daughters will know this, (I only have sons thank fcku). Put in your worst people and to cap it the sexual predatory elements without basic screening then serious problems are the only result. The WOs of the day, failed in their responsabilities, they are the guilty in my most miserable opinion.
 
How many COs in the day managed to be awarded OBEs etc? In My view all of them should have been sacked for not fighting the corner to retain essential staff. Put all your no hope shiite in one place and that was the result. REME were guilty of this big time, we had a chance to weed out the wakners but instead gave the good guys the opportunity to jump ship into civ div which many of them did. Deepcut was a disaster, there was no training for staff on how to deal with different sexes because believe me treating all as equals is not workable, anybody who has sons and daughters will know this, (I only have sons thank fcku). Put in your worst people and to cap it the sexual predatory elements without basic screening then serious problems are the only result. The WOs of the day, failed in their responsabilities, they are the guilty in my most miserable opinion.
Not true. There is no doubt that it was a less than it should have been but like I said before it still managed to produce some splendid fighting men and women.

And again, like I said before, the COs I knew fought like bandits to improve stuff and none appeared in any honours list.
 
Not true. There is no doubt that it was a less than it should have been but like I said before it still managed to produce some splendid fighting men and women.

And again, like I said before, the COs I knew fought like bandits to improve stuff and none appeared in any honours list.
..undoubtedly true!

The root of the problem was always much higher than the depot, and probably higher than capbadge level. The whole cold war rundown period was a complete sh1t sandwich for the support services...
 
So, another Inquest in the offing.
The usual 'Forensic Experts' will be trotted out, eh Frank....unless he's dead by now.
Media is full of 'How could it have been suicide when 5 rounds were discharged?' balls.
I feel for the parents but despise those around them for giving them some sort of false hope that this was a murder.
 
Having been involved in several suicide investigations, including one where the lad put a burst of three into his own head, I agree N-B.
 
Gen question, was the rifle used an SA80 and was it fired on single shot or full auto?
 
So that kind of rubbishes the theory that more than one round and it can't possibly be suicide considering an sa80 would fire 5 in the tiniest blip of the trigger on auto.
 
So that kind of rubbishes the theory that more than one round and it can't possibly be suicide considering an sa80 would fire 5 in the tiniest blip of the trigger on auto.
Of course, I spent an amusing half-hour on the Dail Mail online yesterday corrrecting a whole series of half-witted posters on this point alone. Even allowing for their ignorance of automatic weapons they came across as unusually stupid, not to mention credulous beyond belief.
I'd recommend a read of The Blake Report on Deepcut which came out a few years ago. It's available online and can be read in an afternoon. He debunks all of the ridiculous conspiracy theories and deals with all the bullying and sexual harassment rubbish as well. It's a pity the family of Cheryl James (RIP) didn't read it, or take it seriously if they did, then they wold have been spared the details of her personal life being aired in the media recently.
 
How many COs in the day managed to be awarded OBEs etc? In My view all of them should have been sacked for not fighting the corner to retain essential staff. Put all your no hope shiite in one place and that was the result. REME were guilty of this big time, we had a chance to weed out the wakners but instead gave the good guys the opportunity to jump ship into civ div which many of them did. Deepcut was a disaster, there was no training for staff on how to deal with different sexes because believe me treating all as equals is not workable, anybody who has sons and daughters will know this, (I only have sons thank fcku). Put in your worst people and to cap it the sexual predatory elements without basic screening then serious problems are the only result. The WOs of the day, failed in their responsabilities, they are the guilty in my most miserable opinion.
Whilst I agree with much of your post T-B, to lay the blame at the feet of all COs is a gross over simplification, and unjust. Given a shit hand of cards, the worst that can be said of the majority of training unit COs is they played what they were given.
 
So, another Inquest in the offing.
The usual 'Forensic Experts' will be trotted out, eh Frank....unless he's dead by now.
Media is full of 'How could it have been suicide when 5 rounds were discharged?' balls.
I feel for the parents but despise those around them for giving them some sort of false hope that this was a murder.
If I had loved one die in such a way and then I read this, I too would want questions answered and I'd want to know correct balastic tests were undertaken on all sentry rifles that night, along with who carried what rifle with serial Nos logged.

It doesn't help that the woman soldier kept quiet on her shooting request during her first 2 interviews with police:

Woman soldier ordered comrade to fire on Deepcut 'suicide victim' after shooting alert
 
If I had loved one die in such a way and then I read this, I too would want questions answered and I'd want to know correct balastic tests were undertaken on all sentry rifles that night, along with who carried what rifle with serial Nos logged.

It doesn't help that the woman soldier kept quiet on her shooting request during her first 2 interviews with police:

Woman soldier ordered comrade to fire on Deepcut 'suicide victim' after shooting alert
Read the Blake report which was published 3 years after your news article.

Part 5 'The Death of Sean Benton and specifically from 5.61, fresh evidence from Pte(f) J.
 
Read the Blake report which was published 3 years after your news article.

Part 2 Chapter 5 'The Death of Sean Benton and specifically from Paragraph 5.61, fresh evidence from Pte(f) J. (Page 135 of 508 in the PDF)
@CAARPS,

Fixed your crap reference so that people can actually find the bit you mention.
@The_Civil_Civilian
 
Anyway, all those jumping up and down about various conspiracy theory's have never got past the cover page of the report, it doesn't fit with their take on things :)
 
I've read the report and from my perspective on training establishments as a recent sprog these failings seem unrecognisable to me. Forgive for a potentially bone question but was this report/inquiry a turning point in the way the Army conducted its training, or was there a gradual shift in culture?
 
I've read the report and from my perspective on training establishments as a recent sprog these failings seem unrecognisable to me. Forgive for a potentially bone question but was this report/inquiry a turning point in the way the Army conducted its training, or was there a gradual shift in culture?
as a recent sprog
That's your problem right there son, Deepcut was well before your time.
Believe me, anyone who was serving in the 1970's, 80's and 90's, who will have known instinctively that the whole Deepcut thing was a pile of plop from start from start to finish, and will find The Blake Report to be utterly believable and entire plausible. The findings of the recent inquest into the death of Pte. Cheryl James would seem to indicate that Blake got it right.
 
Read the Blake report which was published 3 years after your news article.

Part 5 'The Death of Sean Benton and specifically from 5.61, fresh evidence from Pte(f) J.
Thanks but I'd read the report some years ago. The point I was trying to make was it is easy to be cynical of people who are pressing for inquiries but there are genuine concerns in some of these cases and the initial investigations were pretty lacklustre. No doubt the former is due to the latter.
 

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