Decline of the RN

#2
STOVL F35B was never the right aircraft for huge 65,000 ton Carriers. I wonder if there is any chance of an outbreak of common sense and the RN getting a much cheaper, but still highly capable aircraft like Super Hornet, in larger numbers than F35C?

Although how the RN is to keep Carrier aircraft skills for all those years with no fixed wing aircraft is totally beyond me. You expect the RAF to betray the RN FAA, but the Government should not help them.
Enemies like Argentina will be looking closely at this huge, no British Aircraft Carrier window.
 
#3
I wonder if there is any chance of an outbreak of common sense and the RN getting a much cheaper, but still highly capable aircraft like Super Hornet, in larger numbers than F35C?
None, I think - with the general commitment of the UK to a Typhoon / F35C fast jet mix. The point being that the Crabs will be able to augment the FAA from the very limited (12 IIRC) normal complement (will the FAA have 2 squadrons - one on, on off, therefore only needing 1 Crab squadron to bring them up to the 35ish design complement?)
 
#4
I think this is the best place really for a rant, because i'm desperately pissed off at the way this SDSR has gone for my service, and I suspect we only have ourselves to blame. It has been pointed out by others not of the RN, and others in the Service at just how badly a kicking we were going to get, but I wanted so badly to believe that sense would prevail.

Now I know the Army will point to Afghan, and their garrison duties, and the RAF will point to the air bridge, and CAP etc etc but just looking at these cuts I cannot see how they have been balanced in the slightest and they just make no ******* sense. The RAF, who I do have respect for, and do believe are a necessary force played well but have fucked British National interests in the pursuit of their own pointy agenda. They are not solely to blame, the Admiralty must also take their share.

So the RAF lose Harrier, and Nimrods, the TWO assets that they use that benefit the RN the most. They keep Tornado and Typhoon, they keep Green Merlin just when the Sea Kings are dying a death slowly, all to sustain the Tonka fleet. Here's a thought, how about taking a hit for the benefit of us all? Selfish, and disgusting approach to force enabling.

And regarding from the woeful decisions made by my own Service in this matter - we can not sit and point fingers at the other services, and the MoD and Labour and the ConDems because we are as to blame as they are. The relentless quest for these ******* carriers has crippled us. MCMV's, the Royal Marines and Amphibs, Hydrography and Intelligence gathering - it's been pointed out as they things we currently do best before, yet all have taken huge hits to protect two carriers - regardless of their size, and capability they are not worth ruining the Service for and have been used as a huge lever by the other services to force us to give up far more than we should have, not least because we deliver the most for UK PLC in terms of defence no matter how the other Services will cry and moan.

Finally, the MoD and Government. I've always been a tory, and have defended them staunchly in the past but the cock handed and rushed manner this defence review has been conducted in has ruined it. I had hoped for an approach that showed more sense, and long term thought than the previous govt, but obviously not. Looking at Dr Fox's face, as Cameron read out the reviews spoke volumes to me, he looked sick as I felt. I understand the need for cuts, but don't take us for idiots, and don't **** us around by pretending we're coming out of this more capable, because we aren't, we have effectively been neutered and I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of anything.

Defence can't be run by politicians. So few have any idea what it is about, just talking to my local MP showed that, just listening to David Cameron, and worse than that they are aware of this but are too reliant on senior officers - of any colour. Let a defence minister, and a PM - because let us face facts, s/he is the one with the final say regardless of what the minister for defence says - read, and understand, and really know the subject and be able to make his/her OWN mind up beyond single service games and how does the best powerpoint.


I don't care if that is ranting, I don't care if it seems like i'm throwing a tantrum, because in a way I am. I need to vent, this whole situation is a disgrace and the sheer futility of making a logical argument int eh face of the ******* treasury is infuriating. I believed the reason there were so many Naval stories in the past month was a well played gambit by the RN to secure a better footing. I now realise that I was wrong, and that they were desperate because in the halls of the MoD we were losing the arguments.


I feel betrayed mostly and for all the excellent choices that could have been made to save money but still stay capable, we end up with this - for all three services.
 
#5
1. The light at the end of the tunnel is a train rushing towards you.
2. If anyone thinks we'll get 13 T26 to replace the T23 is fucking out of their head. I'll forecast about 6 - 8; concomitant reductions will see us operating solely in the Indian Ocean/Somali Basin/Arabian Sea.
3. I'm seriously looking at other options within the Service, such is my pessimism that we'll promote anyone who wants a work/life balance and isn't a Spec N.....
 
#6
I'll forecast about 6 - 8; concomitant reductions will see us operating solely in the Indian Ocean/Somali Basin/Arabian Sea.
I know, I can't cope with this shit much longer especially as they'll try that same 'more capable, need less' bull that they always do.
 
#7
Life in a Blue One.

Could be worse...... Erm, give me a minute!
 
#8
The structural problems within the defence programme (and the failure to tackle them over the last 5 years), the deliberate abolition of all joint capability in the maritime arena, and concomitant politically-driven emasculation of the RN, can be firmly attributed to one individual - the outgoing (and long serving) CDS. It ALL happened on HIS watch.

If he were the CEO of a major corporation, he would have been not only sacked, but also pilloried in the media and prosecuted for misuse of funds. Instead, he'll toddle off to a clutch of aerospace non-executive directorships, write his memoirs (provisionally titled "My Brilliant Career in a Land Locked Nation") and reminisce with Gordon Brown about how wonderful they were together.
 
#9
"So the RAF lose Harrier, and Nimrods, the TWO assets that they use that benefit the RN the most. They keep Tornado and Typhoon, they keep Green Merlin just when the Sea Kings are dying a death slowly..."

mmmm I am confused. I thought that the Green Merlins were going to the FAA? Is this right? If not what will happen once the Sea Kings go in just a few years? I have read the briefs but I can't remember seeing anything on this... what is the plan???
 
#11
At least we came out of it with all capabilities intact - all except ASW, ASuW and SAR top cover that lasts longer than a few hours, at any decent range or altitude!

Axing of MPA.4 was the real kidney punch.

My tinfoil hat is glowing red-hot and I'm ready to believe anything about why it was cancelled! ******* jealous new world order Moloch-cock licking cnuts.

:pissedoff:

Edit : They laugh as they watch us blame each other. The TSR2 jigs were destroyed immediately they were cancelled. I bet the same thing will happen to Nimrod jigs, if they haven't already. That's it. There's no defence against this order of treachery. Roll on the asteroids. :ufo:
 
#12
Agreed, especially for the RN the SDSR is an abortion.
 
#14
If it's an age of uncertainty - the how come they seem sure that carriers won't be needed for ten years?
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
No war for ten years. Simples.
 
#16
The last thing i need to do right now is get into another rant about this- but believe me i could. Its bullshit. Im in mourning. I actually prayed last night that someone would see sense.
 
#17
Although how the RN is to keep Carrier aircraft skills for all those years with no fixed wing aircraft is totally beyond me.
Simple. One of the cabins will be fitted out as a padded cell and we'll bring Sharkey Ward out of retirement.
 
#18
"So the RAF lose Harrier, and Nimrods, the TWO assets that they use that benefit the RN the most. They keep Tornado and Typhoon, they keep Green Merlin just when the Sea Kings are dying a death slowly..."

mmmm I am confused. I thought that the Green Merlins were going to the FAA? Is this right? If not what will happen once the Sea Kings go in just a few years? I have read the briefs but I can't remember seeing anything on this... what is the plan???
There was a bit of double accounting going on - CAS claimed RAF were keeping them in his brief and RN claimed CHF would endure. Truth is a bit of both, 1SL has briefed that CHF will continue but is likely to be a RN/RM/RAF outfit, not sure where it will be based yet.

The RN have been completely turned over, but none more so than the FAA, what is to stop the RAF in the next SDSR in 5 years time putting up the combined force for deletion (a la Harrier) to save one of their pet projects? Nothing.

I am angry and literally cannot see the sense in this, the RAF get their Chinooks then renege on a deal to send the Merlins where they'll be most useful.

The maritime component of UK forces has taken the biggest share of the pain and what on earth any of us are going to do for the next 10 years before we have to regrow amphibiosity and carrier strike I don't know.

I'm proud of my Service but we have been seriously let down in this review, by the politicians not focussing on strategy and by the Defence Board for not recognising that by decimating one of the most capable and value for money elements of our air forces they have done the whole country a disservice.

Threaders...

e_v
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#20
I do wonder at you lot sometimes. The Navy's taken a big hit, but was it so unexpected and as large as we feared? Ironduke99 seems to have taken leave of his senses entirely and gone into cloud cuckoo land - "perhaps we'll get F18's?" Or perhaps you'll get a new build run of Swordfish. It may help you sleep better at night to hope that this will happen but you really should stop being an embarrassment to the Navy by crying like a litle girl on an Army forum.

The Navy has no one to blame for this outcome - not the politicans, not the RAF (no matter how much fun it is), not the Taliban. The fault lies with the Senior Service's senior officers, current and in the last 10-15 years. They finally have what they've sold their birthright for - 2 wonderful large carriers - and its going to make them the laughing stock of the world's navies. So who's surprised they aren't getting any expensive planes any time soon? Anyone? Even Ralph Wiggum could see that one coming.

I can understand YO's have hysterics (I remember doing the same at the last major slash and burn under the tories) but older posters should have the maturity and experience to see that this was inevitable and will, inevitably, happen again.
 

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