Decision making in Defence - a shoeing for the current structure

Yokel

LE
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 
Amen to that - particularly were it to be a force approaching 100 cabs (not holding my breath). Interesting one for the training stream - are they all going to get to include DCA as part of their core training?
It's a swing role aircraft so A-A training will be integral to IOC and FOC milestones. Initially this will be with AMRAAM and ASRAAM but Meteor will replace the former in due course.

Regards,
MM
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
I know why. The reason we went in is because operations provide great MS moments** and also help justify a large defence budget.


** I certainly benefited by having a bit of 'operational sunshine' in my OJAR book when it came to command and promotion boards.
Sadly, didn't really work for me, but then I was in the RAF. Unless you are aircrew, the focus is still on HQ tours, your performance in monitoring the cleaning and catering contract at RAF Little Snoring and charity works.
 
[Pedant] Defensive Counter Air[\Pedant] ie when we try to stop the bad guys' unwarranted, cowardly, underhand and nasty attempts to kill our people and break our stuff.

As opposed to Offensive Counter Air (OCA) which is where we justifiably and bravely go to kill the enemy and break their stuff!

Regards,
MM
 
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jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
[Pedant] Defensive Counter Air[\Pedant] ie when we try to stop the bad guys' unwarranted, underhand and nasty attempts to kill our people and break our stuff.

As opposed to Offensive Counter Air (OCA) which is where we bravely go to kill the enemy and break their stuff!

Regards,
MM
Is that the actual wording in AP3000? :)
 
If it was, it may make it a tad less dry!

Regards,
MM
 

Yokel

LE
Whilst discussing the foul ups that led to the current problems facing us with respect to CVF/F-35B might help us learn, I think the thread was meant to be about poor decision making more in general.

Is JDN 3/11 a useful place to look?
 
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There will be no 'FAA F-35s' just as there will be no RAF F-35s. All sqns will be jointly manned with the split 42/58 in favour of the RAF.

Moreover, we're only buying one variant: the STOVL F-35B which will be based at RAF Marham and embark on the QEs or deploy to land bases as required.

Regards,
MM
But will all aircrew be carrier qualified ?
 
I wouldn't have thought all aircrew will be at all times. I don't think we managed that even with the SHAR. Likewise, not all will be multi-role qualified.

Rather, I would imagine a specified number will be kept carrier qualified to meet FE@R should embarkation be required. However, STOVL and modern synthetics will ensure that just as in 1982, rapid embarkation will be possible.

Regards,
MM
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
But will all aircrew be carrier qualified ?
No more so than in Joint Force Harrier, but the advantage of STOVL is that it's genuinely a lot easier to take someone who can do a vertical (or short rolling, for Lightning) landing onto concrete, and teach them how to do it onto a 60,000-ton ship's deck... than it is to qualify and remain current to reliably catch the #3 wire in an arrested landing by day or night in all flying weathers.

As we saw several times, it's easier to keep a core of pilots qualified and surge more as needed with STOVL than it would be with CTOL - having looked at the numbers I'm left wondering how the 2010 decision ever managed to get past the scrutineers, or indeed if it was ever properly analysed.
 

Yokel

LE
No more so than in Joint Force Harrier, but the advantage of STOVL is that it's genuinely a lot easier to take someone who can do a vertical (or short rolling, for Lightning) landing onto concrete, and teach them how to do it onto a 60,000-ton ship's deck... than it is to qualify and remain current to reliably catch the #3 wire in an arrested landing by day or night in all flying weathers.

As we saw several times, it's easier to keep a core of pilots qualified and surge more as needed with STOVL than it would be with CTOL - having looked at the numbers I'm left wondering how the 2010 decision ever managed to get past the scrutineers, or indeed if it was ever properly analysed.
Well the 2010 decision just happened to conveniently fit with the cuts....and the claim that STOVL embarkations would be of no value in preparing for a CTOL future!

BTW the consensus on PPRuNe (from clever people like naval Pilots and AEOs) is that most F-35B landings will be vertical. Also the control system developed will making landing relatively easy (remember the VAAC experiments?), instead of trying to line up the meatball.
 

No.4 Mk.1

On ROPS
On ROPs
One of my favourite bits - a General losing his home work, or perhaps the dog ate it... ?

"21. Lieutenant General (retired) Sir Robert Fry told us about a document entitled “Why Helmand”, produced by the MoD, which suggests that analysis of decisions made did take place. However, we are unable to confirm this analysis, since the MoD were unable to provide the “Why Helmand” paper. "
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
It was once a boast, or perhaps simple statement of fact. The sun never set on the Union Jack, and, Britain ruled the waves. Today some doubt even Britain’s control over home waters.

Increasing superpower friction, widening ME conflict, Islamic terrorist atrocities in the West and ratcheting up of world wide tension leads more and more people to wonder just what we are heading for.

China’s aggressive expansion in the S China Sea, N Korea’s unstable megalomaniac ‘God’ and his nuclear ambitions, Obama’s unleashing of Iran, whose word is worthless, Russia’s blatant annexation of part of Ukraine, her present Russian fleet willy wagging its way to Syria, her build up of troops along the Eastern European borders now being finally being responded to by NATO. All symptoms of a world wide serious malaise.

In the lead up to this, for better or worse, Britain has in successive governments, suffered a significant decline in defence spending that now sees a severely stripped down Armed Forces. We are told it is quality not quantity. Lean and mean.

It is more like anorexic!!!!

The RN is now seeing two advanced carriers, and, some of the most advanced 5th Gen air superiority in the world…coming. The RAF will in the partnership of Typhoon and F-35 have a potent strike force…coming. The Army some new equipment, light tanks, sniper rifles, and other ancillary new equipment …coming.

A large gap has been allowed to develop in national defence capability over a period of years when admittedly economic hard times have been global. But in a now increasingly unsettled and belligerent world, we should be aware that the potential for conflict has become acute, that in the absence of meaningful deterrence, rogue states, terrorists, pirates and hostile super powers are jostling for any opportunity to fill the present security vacuum.

The Argentine invasion of the Falkland saw Britain capable of power projection, to protect it’s interests, halfway round the globe. Today with diminished forces and reduced personnel, any form of power projection is a dangerous drawdown on minimal reserves leaving us dangerously vulnerable indeed.

In 2012 the UK quietly ended a permanent role in the counter-piracy efforts. Meanwhile January 2014, a resurgent Russian navy, under President Vladimir Putin embarked on an massive modernisation program, and sailed a missile-armed cruiser through the North Sea, Britain felt the dearth of ships closer to home. Within 30 miles of Scotland, the Royal Navy's only available warship, HMS "Defender,” was at Portsmouth and England's southern coast. "Defender" took 24 hours to make the 600-mile journey to Scotland, located the Russian ship, and escorted the cruiser away.

When Islamic State fighters swept through northwestern Iraq, the world mobilised air and sea power to help Baghdad push them back. U.S. and French navies deployed aircraft carriers and launched air strikes on militant forces. The U.S. Navy positioned two carriers in Middle East waters, but for the first time in a century, Britain could do nothing to help.The RN had no aircraft carriers capable of supporting fixed-wing assets. HMS "Illustrious" decommissioned in August 2014, her Harriers preceding her into retirement.

Under successive Labour and Conservative governments defence has been cut to the bone. Can we once again recover our once undoubted capability. Political correctness, reliance upon others, and a woeful lack of appreciation of reality seems to have held sway. The pendulum is thankfully beginning the other way.

In time or too late? Only time will tell.
Some would disagree.

Study finds UK is second most powerful country in the world

"...Researchers at European Geostrategy broke global powers down into four categories: Super Power, Global Power, Regional Power and Local Power....."
 
...When Islamic State fighters swept through northwestern Iraq, the world mobilised air and sea power to help Baghdad push them back. U.S. and French navies deployed aircraft carriers and launched air strikes on militant forces. The U.S. Navy positioned two carriers in Middle East waters, but for the first time in a century, Britain could do nothing to help...
It has evidently escaped your notice that the UK was and remains - by a significant factor - the second most important contributor after the US to Coalition operations against Daesh.

Far from being able to do 'nothing to help', our GR4s, Typhoons and Reapers were rapidly deployed and have been conducting kinetic and ISR operations in both Iraq and Syria. Even had our GR9s still been in service, they most assuredly would not have been operating from CVS had they been committed to SHADER.

Meanwhile, there has been an insatiable demand for our ISR assets from CENTCOM; GR4s using RAPTOR pods provide almost 60% of Coalition tac recce; Reaper RPAS are providing FMV and SAR/GMTI; Sentinel SAR/GMTI is particularly valued; RJ is providing critical SIGINT; our E-3Ds are providing C2 on both SHADER and NATO reassurance; our Voyagers have provided a large part of drogue AAR capacity, including that essential for the carrier assets you mention; C-130s and C-17s have provided intra theatre, Tac and SF support including air drops over Iraq. Finally, UK bases have been heavily used by Coalition forces while UK based and deployed personnel have provided critical Processing, Exploitation and Dissemination (PED) of ISR product, often in real time.

In summary, having worked in CENTCOM, I can state unequivocally that the UK remains the most valued member of the Coalition; no other nation remains able to bring the effects to the table that we are able to. We are of course, also contributing assets to other Theatres.

Are things perfect? No, of course not. Have we been cut to the bone and in some cases beyond? Absolutely. However, let's look at that in a broader context.

The real challenge in Defence today is probably in rebalancing our capabilities towards those which provide a credible and flexible response to a far broader swathe of threats and genuine benefits to UK national interests. In my view, that should see a significant rebalancing of emphasis towards Maritime and Air Power projection capabilities.

Regards,
MM
 
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Yokel

LE
It was once a boast, or perhaps simple statement of fact. The sun never set on the Union Jack, and, Britain ruled the waves. Today some doubt even Britain’s control over home waters.

Increasing superpower friction, widening ME conflict, Islamic terrorist atrocities in the West and ratcheting up of world wide tension leads more and more people to wonder just what we are heading for.

China’s aggressive expansion in the S China Sea, N Korea’s unstable megalomaniac ‘God’ and his nuclear ambitions, Obama’s unleashing of Iran, whose word is worthless, Russia’s blatant annexation of part of Ukraine, her present Russian fleet willy wagging its way to Syria, her build up of troops along the Eastern European borders now being finally being responded to by NATO. All symptoms of a world wide serious malaise.

In the lead up to this, for better or worse, Britain has in successive governments, suffered a significant decline in defence spending that now sees a severely stripped down Armed Forces. We are told it is quality not quantity. Lean and mean.

It is more like anorexic!!!!

The RN is now seeing two advanced carriers, and, some of the most advanced 5th Gen air superiority in the world…coming. The RAF will in the partnership of Typhoon and F-35 have a potent strike force…coming. The Army some new equipment, light tanks, sniper rifles, and other ancillary new equipment …coming.

A large gap has been allowed to develop in national defence capability over a period of years when admittedly economic hard times have been global. But in a now increasingly unsettled and belligerent world, we should be aware that the potential for conflict has become acute, that in the absence of meaningful deterrence, rogue states, terrorists, pirates and hostile super powers are jostling for any opportunity to fill the present security vacuum.

The Argentine invasion of the Falkland saw Britain capable of power projection, to protect it’s interests, halfway round the globe. Today with diminished forces and reduced personnel, any form of power projection is a dangerous drawdown on minimal reserves leaving us dangerously vulnerable indeed.

In 2012 the UK quietly ended a permanent role in the counter-piracy efforts. Meanwhile January 2014, a resurgent Russian navy, under President Vladimir Putin embarked on an massive modernisation program, and sailed a missile-armed cruiser through the North Sea, Britain felt the dearth of ships closer to home. Within 30 miles of Scotland, the Royal Navy's only available warship, HMS "Defender,” was at Portsmouth and England's southern coast. "Defender" took 24 hours to make the 600-mile journey to Scotland, located the Russian ship, and escorted the cruiser away.

When Islamic State fighters swept through northwestern Iraq, the world mobilised air and sea power to help Baghdad push them back. U.S. and French navies deployed aircraft carriers and launched air strikes on militant forces. The U.S. Navy positioned two carriers in Middle East waters, but for the first time in a century, Britain could do nothing to help.The RN had no aircraft carriers capable of supporting fixed-wing assets. HMS "Illustrious" decommissioned in August 2014, her Harriers preceding her into retirement.

Under successive Labour and Conservative governments defence has been cut to the bone. Can we once again recover our once undoubted capability. Political correctness, reliance upon others, and a woeful lack of appreciation of reality seems to have held sway. The pendulum is thankfully beginning the other way.

In time or too late? Only time will tell.
Could this be something to do certain Generals persuading the Government that all future conflict will be land based low tech affairs? One of them seems to have disappeared from public view since the publication of the Chilcott report....
 
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jim30

LE
"In 2012 the UK quietly ended a permanent role in the counter-piracy efforts."

That may come as news to assets operating in the KIPION JOA today...
 
"In 2012 the UK quietly ended a permanent role in the counter-piracy efforts."

That may come as news to assets operating in the KIPION JOA today...
He cant even say we started up again as i was doing it in 2013.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
 

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