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Death penalty and human rights

DieHard

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
The European court of human rights has got involved in the British judical system again with its ruling that life sentences should not be for life and that the prisoner should have some hope of release with reviews of the sentence
http://news.sky.com/story/1113395/whole-life-inmates-win-human-rights-victory

This has got me thinking that with the increasing technology available in forensic science and the reduced chance of miscariage of justice, could or should the death penalty be re-intraduced?
Some crimes are so horrendus that the perpatrator should never see daylight again, and in these cases and with irrevocable evidence ( look back to woolwich ),
should the ultimate penalty apply?
I used to be against the death penalty but the thought of some of the worst murderers and peadophiles and rapist walking free just sickens me.
Mistakes have been made in
the past that would make the need for evidence to be water tight to prevent it from being repeated again.
Obviously this is a highly contriversial and sensitive subject, but whenever i have spoken to people over the last couple of months they all tend to say that the death penalty should be bought back.
In theory i agree but i still have that niggling doubt about misscariage of justice issues.
What are your thoughts on this?
For instance the woolwich murderers were filmed, boasted about it and wanted everyone to see there crime, should they have the right to a review of sentence? serve under 20 years? Or be put to death?
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edited due to posting before finished
 
#2
The European court of human rights has got involved in the British judical system again with its ruling that life sentences should not be for life and that the prisoner should have some hope of release with reviews of the sentence
Whole-Life Inmates Win Human Rights Victory

This has got me thinking that with the increasing technology available in forensic science and the reduced chance of miscariage of justice, could or should the death penalty be re-intraduced?
Some crimes are so horrendus that the perpatrator should never see daylight again, and in these cases and with irrevocable evidence ( look back to woolwich ),
should the ultimate penalty apply?
I used to be against the death penalty but the thought of some of the worst murderers and peadophiles and rapist walking free just sickens me.
Mistakes have been made in

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Did your brain just stop working about there?

Or did you mean to fin
 

DieHard

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
Bloody phone went blank and when switched on it had been posted before finishing. sorry

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#4
I thought "life" sentences were for an indeterminate period, with a 'minimum to be served' before review element, so there is the theoretical possibility of release for every prisoner. Re the death penalty, no. You can cut out errors of misidentification, but there will always be the possibility of deliberate contamination of evidence by corrupt police officers. You can never remove that element, so there will never be a 100% guarantee that every conviction is as sold. Once the state has murdered someone, which, is what I hold the deliberate killing of someone, innocent or not, is, it's a bit late to say "Oops, our bad" later. Then what do you intend to do? Kill everyone who had a chance to contaminate the evidence with the convicting dna / fingerprint / etc? What if you can't point at a single piece of evidence, after 30 or 40 years, and say "that's the exact bit of evidence used to acquire the 'murder by state instrument' killing?" There's obviously at least one specific, possibly identifiable, murderer wandering about, it's just that they used the nation to commit the murder they wanted done, rather than bloodying their own hands.

Please don't be stupid enough to try claiming there's not one copper in the country, and won't be, until the end of time, that wouldn't, as there's plenty enough examples of trainee, serving and ex- coppers convicted of pretty much every crime going to counter that idiotic claim.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#7
Here's one of only a few reasons why we should never have the death penalty:

Murder of Lesley Molseed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are quite a few others. We still live in an age where police officers will lie, hide, or tamper with evidence. If you track the ability of the current crop through a HMIC publication called 'Stop the Drift 2' (it's on line), you'll see just how incompetent our police are. 'Stop the Drift (1)' addressed police management. Most of them haven't a clue about the laws which they are paid to uphold and this is a worry for HMIC. 70% of offences are summary offences. A substantial amount of summary cases are dropped by CPS or thrown out by Magistrates, because the police cannot fill in the paperwork correctly, or as is often the case, they can't be bothered to. In any other line of employment they'd have been sacked. May, has a point with the police and much as I dislike the woman, she has good reason to make the changes that she intends to make. The lack of knowledge of the law within the police is such a major issue that the College of Policing have been tasked to sort it out. Incompetence and corruption. The police are full of it. Look at the corruption scandals over the past 5-6 years (you can go back further) to see just what a bunch of crooked ****ers there are in the Police Executive. It's no wonder that lawyers have a field day with them. They continually roll out the tired old claims that they are hard done by and that every barrel has at least one bad apple, well that's just pure bollocks. There are far too many of them willing to bend or rewrite the rules to suit themselves, and then they manage to delay enquiries into their own conduct just long enough to ensure that they get away with their pensions. Look at Cleveland Police and North Yorkshire Police (there are others) for examples of how these people operate. You wonder who the real criminals are sometimes. Some of them are even willing to stitch up their own...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...00-compensation-framed-racist-colleagues.html

As for Kiszko, the girls who lied about him were confronted in adulthood and each refused to apologise. The Senior Investigating Officer in that case was the bloke who bought into 'Wearside Jack' the hoaxer who disrupted the Yorkshire Ripper investigations, because he was unwilling to remain open minded about the investigation and hence, other murders occurred. He had previous for incompetence in other high profile investigations. If you don't think that such narrow minded, incompetent thinking would happen today, just google DCI Riordan who's utter stupidity recently cost Cleveland Police £500,000 in damages, @£1m in costs, a figure which stands to be repeated at least 4 times (other claimants) because he was a bloody minded twat who believed that he was above the law he was paid to uphold. He managed to get away with his pension as did every other member of Cleveland Police who has been involved in corrupt practice or indeed, crime. And you would trust these people to produce the evidence with which someone would be killed judicially?

Here he is..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22452157

That's all tax payers money going down the pan.

We will never return to the death penalty, no matter how many threads appear here (how many is it now?) which is probably a very good thing.
 
#8
The European court of human rights has got involved in the British judical system again with its ruling that life sentences should not be for life and that the prisoner should have some hope of release with reviews of the sentence/QUOTE]

I highlighted the bit of your posting just to say that they are involved in our judicial system because the, once sovereign Westminster Parliament, passed an Act that said they had the power and authority to do so. Although I do not have much time for the European Court of Human Rights I have even less for time for Westminster who gave them the authority to butt in without asking the UK electorate.
 

DieHard

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
I thought "life" sentences were for an indeterminate period, with a 'minimum to be served' before review element, so there is the theoretical possibility of release for every prisoner. Re the death penalty, no. You can cut out errors of misidentification, but there will always be the possibility of deliberate contamination of evidence by corrupt police officers. You can never remove that element, so there will never be a 100% guarantee that every conviction is as sold. Once the state has murdered someone, which, is what I hold the deliberate killing of someone, innocent or not, is, it's a bit late to say "Oops, our bad" later. Then what do you intend to do? Kill everyone who had a chance to contaminate the evidence with the convicting dna / fingerprint / etc? What if you can't point at a single piece of evidence, after 30 or 40 years, and say "that's the exact bit of evidence used to acquire the 'murder by state instrument' killing?" There's obviously at least one specific, possibly identifiable, murderer wandering about, it's just that they used the nation to commit the murder they wanted done, rather than bloodying their own hands.

Please don't be stupid enough to try claiming there's not one copper in the country, and won't be, until the end of time, that wouldn't, as there's plenty enough examples of trainee, serving and ex- coppers convicted of pretty much every crime going to counter that idiotic claim.
A very valid point, i was a prison officer and a lot of cons claimed they were stitched, most were just bitter at being caught but in my dealings with some of them, their conviction did seem a bit dubious.
Most of the lifers comply inside and play the prisoner game well and to all appearences are very amiable, but few are unrepentant and some are just plain dangerous.
I thank you for your view and agree with quite a bit and up until recently my own views were the same as yours, but after years of seeing people being released only to kill or rape again, i feel they should not have had the chance to do so. And the woolwich killers taunted everyone with no doubt of guilt, should they have the right to walk free in 20 years?
A life tarrif used to be for 99 years with a reccomendation of a minimum term of say 20 years. time could and used to be added within the tarrif up to the 99 years, kray twins for example.
Now most prison governors can only add 28 days and the circuit judges dont, cant or wont increase the sentence within the tarrif.


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#10
It's currently banned under UK law. We stopped hanging people for treason, piracy and arson in a RN dockyard in war time when the Equality and Human Rights act was brought in by Cherie Blair, err, sorry I mean the Blair government, in 1998.

It's also barred by the European Convention so we'd have to drop out of the EU and the Council of Europe to reintroduce hanging.
 
T

Taffd

Guest
#11
Yes, but what's your point? :)

I completely understand that Stefan Kisko would have been wrongly hanged, and that is not acceptable. But, there has to be a way to make sure that such things don't happen, while also making it possible to lynch the like of the Woolwich killers, Huntley etc.
How about if you're found to have committed perjury and someone's wrongly convicted of something, you automatically face the same penalty?
 
#15
Why not dispense with the trials,and just make them take a Jeremy Kyle lie detector test.If they fail execute them.It'll save the tax payers a bomb.
 
#18
The ECHR hasn't said that you can't lock someone up for the rest of their natural, just that you have to review the sentence from time-to-time.

We do no harm in reviewing a sentence, after-all, if the correct sentence is whole life then this can be ratified at the review and at subsequent reviews. However I'm minded of the Ruth Ellis case where it is unlikely that she would have even been convicted today since she was of diminished responsibility.

There's also a female solicitor who would have been hung because people found it impossible to believe that 2 of her children could have died of cot death, eventually it was proved they could have and she was released.

Even when guilty beyond all doubt there should still be room for rehabilitation. A young, disturbed and drug crazed young adult may grow into a reasoned and compassionate drug-free adult. If over twenty years he can turn his life around then this should be recognised and another chance given. If there is no turn around or rehabilitation then just keep them behind bars.
 
#19
Evans was stitched up by a corrupt system. Agreed it was half a century ago but of the bloke had a half decent legal team and if the Met had not doctored statements he would not have been hung.

From the wiki link.

This alleged confession, along with other contradictory statements Evans made during the police interrogation, was formerly cited as proof of his guilt. Ludovic Kennedy, however, showed that the confessions were fabricated and dictated to Evans by the investigating officers, and that they interrogated the accused over the course of late evening and early morning hours to his physical and emotional detriment, a man already in a highly emotional state. Evans also stated in court that he was threatened with violence by the police, and it is likely that they coerced Evans to his false confession.
One important fact was not brought up in Evans's trial: several workmen were willing to testify that there were no bodies in the wash-house when they worked there several days after Evans supposedly hid them. They stored their tools in the wash-room, and mended the roof during this period. Their evidence in itself would have raised doubts about the veracity of Evans's alleged confessions, but the workmen were not called to give evidence. Indeed, the police reinterviewed the workmen and forced them to change their evidence to fit the preconceived idea that Evans was the sole murderer.
The Metropolitan Police hanged Evans not the Jury.........
 

jarrod248

LE
Gallery Guru
#20
Lee Rigby's killers do not deserve a second chance. Lee hasn't got one.

They deserve to be put to death. There's no chance of a miscarriage of justice. They brutally murdered a soldier on the streets of London in broad daylight, in front of dozens of witnesses and cameras, then even baited the Police.

If we are to have rules in society, then we must have appropriate punishment for breaking them. I do not think that 20 or 30 years in jail while society pays to rehabilitate them is appropriate. Put them on trial; if found guilty, execute them.
It is of course possible that there is a mental illness.
 

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