Deac and replica guns

#1
A farmer mate of mine has been asked to portray his Suffolk Punch as a war horse at various shows and asked me about weapons. He already has had a uniform made in India and it looks ok.

The last time I bought a Lee Enfield it was a No4 and cost £80. So anticipating a top price of £200 I was shocked to see that your average No4 is £500 and a SMLE maybe a bit more. When the f did that happen??? I thought that with the latest deac laws prices may have plummeted, but clearly not!

Looking at replicas Denix do an okish SMLE for £170 but obviously the VCR act applies. Assuming he can eventually comply with the act to buy one, I'm not sure what the law says about displaying a replica at a show. Re enactors manage it so could he?
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#2
A farmer mate of mine has been asked to portray his Suffolk Punch as a war horse at various shows and asked me about weapons. He already has had a uniform made in India and it looks ok.

The last time I bought a Lee Enfield it was a No4 and cost £80. So anticipating a top price of £200 I was shocked to see that your average No4 is £500 and a SMLE maybe a bit more. When the f did that happen??? I thought that with the latest deac laws prices may have plummeted, but clearly not!

Looking at replicas Denix do an okish SMLE for £170 but obviously the VCR act applies. Assuming he can eventually comply with the act to buy one, I'm not sure what the law says about displaying a replica at a show. Re enactors manage it so could he?
I think he has to join a group and then it's ok
 

WALT

War Hero
#3
A realistic firearm is only allowed to be purchased by a member of a recognised re-enactment group. The definition of "recognised" is for the group to have minimum third party insurance. Bizarrely enough, he would find it cheaper and easier to purchase a live firer.
 
#4
I pointed him In the direction of the Khaki Chums. Taff might be able to help. But why are .303's so expensive?
 
#5
A realistic firearm is only allowed to be purchased by a member of a recognised re-enactment group. The definition of "recognised" is for the group to have minimum third party insurance. Bizarrely enough, he would find it cheaper and easier to purchase a live firer.
Yes, very true! He could buy my No4 on a shotgun cert as its smooth bore no problem at all. Shame I dont have a similar SMLE.
 
#6
A farmer mate of mine has been asked to portray his Suffolk Punch as a war horse at various shows and asked me about weapons. He already has had a uniform made in India and it looks ok.

The last time I bought a Lee Enfield it was a No4 and cost £80. So anticipating a top price of £200 I was shocked to see that your average No4 is £500 and a SMLE maybe a bit more. When the f did that happen??? I thought that with the latest deac laws prices may have plummeted, but clearly not!

Looking at replicas Denix do an okish SMLE for £170 but obviously the VCR act applies. Assuming he can eventually comply with the act to buy one, I'm not sure what the law says about displaying a replica at a show. Re enactors manage it so could he?
As mentioned above:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms
The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 provide two further defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to ‘permitted activities’ and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities. The second defence is for the purpose of display at arms fairs, defined in the regulations by reference to ‘permitted events’.

The Regulations also specify the persons who can claim the defence for historical re-enactment. This is restricted to those organising or taking part in re-enactment activities for which third party liability insurance is held.
 

WALT

War Hero
#7
But why are .303's so expensive?
Supply and demand. There are less restrictions on deacs than live firers so the market is larger (and more expensive). The market for live firers is smaller, therefore they are cheaper. I agree, it seems ludicrous to me also.
 
#8
As mentioned above:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms
The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 provide two further defences. The first is for the organisation and holding of airsoft skirmishing. This is defined by reference to ‘permitted activities’ and the defence applies only where third party liability insurance is held in respect of the activities. The second defence is for the purpose of display at arms fairs, defined in the regulations by reference to ‘permitted events’.

The Regulations also specify the persons who can claim the defence for historical re-enactment. This is restricted to those organising or taking part in re-enactment activities for which third party liability insurance is held.
So, if he joins the Khaki Chums and buys a deac or replica he can go to shows where the KC are not present provided he has third party insurance? That's the way I read it.
 
#10
Oh tricky. If he is there and the Khaki Chums are not, he could be outside of the group's insurance. I did occasionally join other groups when I was walting at an event that my group was not attending, but I had to be certain to be "invited" by another attending group to come under their insurance.
Seriously, tell him to get a live firer (and the relevant certificate). He is then relatively free to do his own thing. Also, live firers are instantly recognised as legit (or not) by the Old Bill whereas deacs and realistic firearms are a bloody minefield to half arsed ignorant coppers. Sorry, but I've met quite a few in my time.


ETA. And live firers can go boom (with blanks - natch). Can be fun in the right circumstances.

Edited to further add:- if he does go down the live route make sure that he informs and introduces himself to the event organisors. They can get a bit up tight with unknown quantities wandering around armed to the teeth.
 
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#11
Oh tricky. If he is there and the Khaki Chums are not, he could be outside of the group's insurance. I did occasionally join other groups when I was walting at an event that my group was not attending, but I had to be certain to be "invited" by another attending group to come under their insurance.
Seriously, tell him to get a live firer (and the relevant certificate). He is then relatively free to do his own thing. Also, live firers are instantly recognised as legit (or not) by the Old Bill whereas deacs and realistic firearms are a bloody minefield to half arsed ignorant coppers. Sorry, but I've met quite a few in my time.
Thanks for that. If he cant get his own insurance then that might be the way to go. Just seems bloody crazy you can carry a live weapon but not a bit of wood that looks like a weapon. I know there are checks with a live weapon, but that made little difference at Dunblane.
 
#12
So, if he joins the Khaki Chums and buys a deac or replica he can go to shows where the KC are not present provided he has third party insurance? That's the way I read it.
Is he covered by their insurance? Is he covered as part of the Society? That would be between him, them and the insurers.

Not sure why he doesn’t get a SGC? Get a .410 smooth bored SMLE with the mag fixed and incapable of holding more than two rounds? He can reenact to his hearts content then.

Thanks for that. If he cant get his own insurance then that might be the way to go. Just seems bloody crazy you can carry a live weapon but not a bit of wood that looks like a weapon.
Because with a SGC or FAC they can do checks on people and ensure it’s stored securely
I know there are checks with a live weapon, but that made little difference at Dunblane.
That subject has been done to death on here. Not sure you’re going to bring anything new to the discussion.
 
#13
Yep, but if you've got a real one, you've been vetted. So the cops know you. If you've got a deac or a realistic imitation, you could be any old weirdo. And the cops don't like that.

Second thought, there's nothing stopping him from starting his own group - of one . As long as he has the insurance.
 
#14
All Fronts Re-Enactment (Home Page - AFRA) are worth checking out. They give public liability insurance and issue a photo-id with your name and details printed on it.

Your mate could start his own re-enactment group and put details of the shows he's going to display at on the AFRA web-site. The AFRA card is recognised by most of the suppliers I've dealt with (for example, D&B Militaria, D&B Militaria - Deactivated Guns & Militaria).

Hope this helps.
 
#15
Not sure why he doesn’t get a SGC? Get a .410 smooth bored SMLE with the mag fixed and incapable of holding more than two rounds? He can reenact to his hearts content then.
With the added bonus that he can use it for ratting too.

Right, I'm off to bed (I'm an hour before you) and although Scalieback and myself are giving you the same info, he does it so much more grown up than me so I'll leave you to him.
 
#16
Is he covered by their insurance? Is he covered as part of the Society? That would be between him, them and the insurers.

Not sure why he doesn’t get a SGC? Get a .410 smooth bored SMLE with the mag fixed and incapable of holding more than two rounds? He can reenact to his hearts content then.


Because with a SGC or FAC they can do checks on people and ensure it’s stored securely

That subject has been done to death on here. Not sure you’re going to bring anything new to the discussion.
Sorry, was just a statement of fact, not intended to bring anything new.

I agree that the SGC seems to be the least painless (but not necessarily cheapest) way to go. Thanks for all your guys help.
 
#17
Sorry, was just a statement of fact, not intended to bring anything new.
That would depend on how much of Cullen’s report you read surely?
I agree that the SGC seems to be the least painless (but not necessarily cheapest) way to go. Thanks for all your guys help.
I think it is overall personally and it is bizarre that I’d recommend getting ‘real’ firearms over RIFs. But there you go. The discussions in 2006 seemed rather one sided.

Now if someone made an air rifle that looked like a SMLE .... :)

As @WALT says, he could even have it as ‘dual’ use.
 
#18
All Fronts Re-Enactment (Home Page - AFRA) are worth checking out. They give public liability insurance and issue a photo-id with your name and details printed on it.

Your mate could start his own re-enactment group and put details of the shows he's going to display at on the AFRA web-site. The AFRA card is recognised by most of the suppliers I've dealt with (for example, D&B Militaria, D&B Militaria - Deactivated Guns & Militaria).

Hope this helps.
Thanks! I will pass that info on, much appreciated!
 
#19
That would depend on how much of Cullen’s report you read surely?

I think it is overall personally and it is bizarre that I’d recommend getting ‘real’ firearms over RIFs. But there you go. The discussions in 2006 seemed rather one sided.

Now if someone made an air rifle that looked like a SMLE .... :)

As @WALT says, he could even have it as ‘dual’ use.
Cheers Scalieback! As you say it's all a bit bizarre, but at least we have a solution. I will pass all this info on, I'm sure he will be most grateful for all your input.
 
#20
The VCRA element covers the sale or manufacture/modification. Therefore to buy an imitation he only needs to satisfy the seller.

So with re-enactment he would need to meet the criteria such as being a member of a group with Public Liabilty Insurance.
Not being with a group and potentially not being insured (if the groups insurance covers activities as the group) would not be a breach of the VCRA .... and if If was found to be so the VCRA fine would be against the seller who supplied the RIF

Being in public with the RIF and the police taking a dislike would be a different matter but not a VCRA offence.


A very dodgy way around the VCRA is that one BB gun retailer sells ‘cosplay’ insurance, and will supply RIFs on that basis. Cosplay is a big stretch of the imagination against the VCRAs re-enactment defence
 

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