De Valera, and how he plotted AGAINST the IRA in WW2

Yes all true and furthermore the Treaty agreement was the result of a lover's tiff between Collins and Dev...

In fact Kitty Kiernan was actually a bloke called Seamus Rafferty who played half-back for Kerry and after Collins' death he/she became a priest in Western Samoa...

Please tell me that you made that last bit up....... ;-)
 
I was always under the impress that the bulk of the Catholics living in the North when the recent Troubles kicked off had only been there for a generation having been forced to move up as economic migrants after De Valera gutted the Republic's economy, and as a result had Collins had his wet dream of a major Free State guerilla offensive in the North even if we'd decided to bug out the FS would have had its hands full trying to police an overwhelming hostile and well equipped occupied population and would likely have either been forced to abandon it or use such methods as to cause an outcry in the UK mainland and force the government into stepping in.
 
I strongly suspect that if Collins had lived, we'd have had the Troubles in the North in the mid-1920s and probably have had to go back into the South. He had some very workable, but utterly barking, plans for what to do liberate the 6 Counties. Remember also what was going on in Mainland Europe during all this time - I can imagine Collins looking at i Fascisti and thinking, "hmmm, that seems like a good idea".

Collins could of been another Jan Smuts
 

stameen_s

Old-Salt
Unlike the current crop of unprofessional politicians that we're stuck with?

Any sign of dissent, difficulty or uprising. Dev just had the usual supects rounded up and stuck in jail. A tactic which has served the south well over the years. There was an outcry when Shinners asked for early release of the killers of Gardai McCabe and as far as I know they're stil locked up. Until they went away the IRAs Green Book (of rules and regulations????) expressly forbade any action in the 26 counties because of the trouble it would bring down

Gun runner and current TD Martin Ferris greeted them when they were released. Unfortunately they were sent down for manslaughter rather than murder thanks to withdrawal of witness testimony after intimidation by SF/IRA members.
 
Collins could of been another Jan Smuts

I don't think that tactically or politically Collins was in the same volume as Slim Jannie - let alone on the same page. Collins is another one of those lucky historical figures whose brief brilliance was never dulled by thirty years of dull public life, making everyday errors and being conned or corrupted by associates.

Oh and Father Rafferty was well regarded by the people of Samoa I'll have you know, who never asked awkward questions about the two steamer trunks of ladies' underwear monogrammed "KK" which accompanied him everywhere.
 
I don't think that tactically or politically Collins was in the same volume as Slim Jannie - let alone on the same page. Collins is another one of those lucky historical figures whose brief brilliance was never dulled by thirty years of dull public life, making everyday errors and being conned or corrupted by associates.

Collins' potential ended with his death, and it be useless to suggest what he could of been. Rather, I imply that, there could have been more collaboration between the Irish Free State and the UK, in the same mould as Smuts and Botha, after the Boer War.
 
Collins' potential ended with his death, and it be useless to suggest what he could of been. Rather, I imply that, there could have been more collaboration between the Irish Free State and the UK, in the same mould as Smuts and Botha, after the Boer War.

Collins was a realist, he knew Ireland had to live with England or end up dead in the water. De Valera however was clueless and positively relished the idea of isolationism with his 'ourselves alone' philosophy.



I was always under the impress that the bulk of the Catholics living in the North when the recent Troubles kicked off had only been there for a generation having been forced to move up as economic migrants after De Valera gutted the Republic's economy, and as a result had Collins had his wet dream of a major Free State guerilla offensive in the North even if we'd decided to bug out the FS would have had its hands full trying to police an overwhelming hostile and well equipped occupied population and would likely have either been forced to abandon it or use such methods as to cause an outcry in the UK mainland and force the government into stepping in.



The Catholic minority made up about 33% of the population of the 6 counties in 1922.
 

Punch

LE
I was always under the impress that the bulk of the Catholics living in the North when the recent Troubles kicked off had only been there for a generation having been forced to move up as economic migrants after De Valera gutted the Republic's economy, and as a result had Collins had his wet dream of a major Free State guerilla offensive in the North even if we'd decided to bug out the FS would have had its hands full trying to police an overwhelming hostile and well equipped occupied population and would likely have either been forced to abandon it or use such methods as to cause an outcry in the UK mainland and force the government into stepping in.

This is a subject not generally discussed or acknowledged. The rush of economic migrants - of both Roman Catholic and Protestant persuasion - of the late 1930's caused the Northern Ireland Government to establish a "quota" system of work permits in an attempt to ensure employment for those already living there.
Much of my extended maternal family, encompassing both religious groupings, obtained permits and moved "citizenship" to NI. Some moved much further of course.
That quota system became one more stick for the propagandists to use against Northern Ireland.

WW2, through jobs created in NI and Britain by the massive increase in industrial output, also tempted many to flee from the clutches of De Valera's stultifying "Catholic State for a Catholic people". However the "church", in the form of a very active priesthood, did everything it possibly could to ensure those people did not entirely escape despite leaving Dev's jurisdiction.
 
I worked in shipping in Liverpool during the war. Princes Dock always had a couple of Irish ships in.Black hulls with the green white and gold tricolour and EIRE painted on the side. Ran to Dublin and Drogheda. My firm had a Red Ensign flagged, battleship grey, little coaster called "Rockabill" with DEMS gunners on board. She ran a weekly (unescorted) service to Waterford. Inward cargoes mainly tinned stewed steak and, would you believe, in season, blackberries for the Hartley's and Nelson's jam makers. The crews used to buy crates of eggs in Ireland and sell them in small quantities to dockers and anyone else who had business on board. I had a regular order for half a dozen. (I think and hope that I am covered by the Statutes of Limitations).
Outward cargoes often had Cadbury's chocolates, Luxury biscuits, confectionery etc. All part of the psycholigical warfare to kid the neutrals that we weren't down and out. In his book "1940 Myth and reality"
Clive Ponting recounts how Winston Churchill offered the Six Counties to De Valera in exchange for naval bases on Ireland's Atlantic coastline. Mendacity at its best.

All Ireland bound ships had to call to a U.K. port first
 
'They also seemed to be a lot happier interning German pilots that landed in Ireland. Most Allied pilots were usually escorted promptly to the border.'

There was a rather unbelievable 1998 film on this subject starring Gabriel Byrne and one of the appalling name removed brothers called 'The Brylcreem Boys' which seemed to indicate that anyone who escaped (from what was, basically, an open prison) was recaptured and returned to the camp, whilst anyone who got across the border, having given parole, was returned by the British.

True story
There is a great book called “Guests of the State”
 
Probably, he seems to have missed the bit were 55,000 Irishmen joined up during WWII with the full co-operation of the Free State Government.
He also seems to have missed the quantities of military equipment that were given to Ireland during WWII in reward for their less than neutral neutrality as well as the steady supply of essential goods in British shipping throughout WWII, and that 'neutral' Irish merchant ships would often sail along regular convoy routes at great risk to pick up survivors.
Very little given… sold yes

Afaik Irish ships didn’t sail with convoys. Did happen on survivors occasionally
 

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