DE leavers

#1
Is it me or do there appear to be a large number of the DE RLC Offr community leaving us either at the mo or very shortly. I have heard through numerous sources of at least two CO's and a number of Majors bailing. Is there a trend beginning to form here or I am I being a little bit over-concerned about nothing.

The reason I ask is that if there are a few of the heirarchy leaving us...then WHY??? Surely the Corps is thrusting harder than ever and our success rates and awards on ops support this. I myself have had to deal with a number of the troops wanting to do something else other than wear green. I spend an inordinate amount of time convincing these soldiers to stay and I can't help wonder that if the army is such a great opportunity then why are key personalities leaving...

Is anyone else out there concerned about this???

Is this specific to the RLC????
 
#2
I doubt that this is anything special to The Corps and I expect a deal of what your assertion stems from may be natural wastage; by which I mean, departures for obvious reason such as reaching the 16 (IRC) or 18 year (Reg C) pension points. Think about it, most Officers achieve majority at 31-33 having joined as a grad maybe 8 years earlier. 8 years later, they are senior Majors or Lt Cols (having commanded a sub-unit and done a couple of staff jobs) and are pensionable but still around 40 years old. When the future does not look as bright as some alternatives (after all, not everyone can command a Regt) and with other perceived pressures such as the frequency of op tours or maybe children who are well into school age, it is all too attractive to walk.

Oooh, this is my 200th post!
 
#3
Dragstrip said:
I doubt that this is anything special to The Corps and I expect a deal of what your assertion stems from may be natural wastage; by which I mean, departures for obvious reason such as reaching the 16 (IRC) or 18 year (Reg C) pension points. Think about it, most Officers achieve majority at 31-33 having joined as a grad maybe 8 years earlier. 8 years later, they are senior Majors or Lt Cols (having commanded a sub-unit and done a couple of staff jobs) and are pensionable but still around 40 years old. When the future does not look as bright as some alternatives (after all, not everyone can command a Regt) and with other perceived pressures such as the frequency of op tours or maybe children who are well into school age, it is all too attractive to walk.

Oooh, this is my 200th post!
...Have you been reading my mind!
 
#4
I just think the arrival of large scale projects in the UK and overseas is having a detrimental effect on the retention of personnel. Those looking for a job may want to have a look at Terminal 5 which appears to be largely manned by ex members of the corps.

Olympic size projects may also be offering a real alternative to green service, with additional promises of more projects to follow. I am all too aware that other agencies in support of defence are also offering sizeable wages with the promise of almost continuous work.

I am fully aware of personnel leaving at career milestones. I do feel that some of the personnel we are losing are not going because they have reached these stages in their career.

Why have your ar*e shot off in Basrah or Helmond if you can earn big bucks working elsewhere and going home of an evening to your family.

Civvi street are beginning to wise up to the potential of the military minded individual in project and man management roles.

I am just concerned for the Corps when we start to lose personnel to these other agencies!!!
 
#5
Your point is well made QMan. I think that this is a slight concern for all of us. Indeed, the perenial perception has ever been that organisations such as ours will always lose some quality whilst keeping a balance of others who have nowhere else to go. However, IMHO, I think we actually do quite well for senior officers. I've heard horror stories (some of which appear to be well conceived) but I choose to be my own judge and can safely say that I have not met any member of The Corps' upper echelons whom I havent either gotten on well with or I have at the very least understood.
 
#6
I’ve heard that the CO of arguably the most high profile Regiment in the RLC has PVR'd and I dare say its not to help build the Olympic village!

There has always been a lot of reasons to leave the Army; these days there is just an ever diminishing list of reasons to stay.
 
#8
It could also have something to do with the fact that the Military Covenant is so out of kilter. Senior Officers are expected to make command decisions on Ops as they always have been. However, it is no longer the case where 'I was the man on the ground and made that decision out of the way I read the situation' is sufficient justification anymore. More and more we hear of Senior Officers being asked to justify situations and/or actions publicly. With the increase in operational tempo, Commanders are being asked to risk their careers more regularly than ever before. What does the system offer in return?
 
#9
ThereIsOnlyOne said:
It could also have something to do with the fact that the Military Covenant is so out of kilter. Senior Officers are expected to make command decisions on Ops as they always have been. However, it is no longer the case where 'I was the man on the ground and made that decision out of the way I read the situation' is sufficient justification anymore. More and more we hear of Senior Officers being asked to justify situations and/or actions publicly. With the increase in operational tempo, Commanders are being asked to risk their careers more regularly than ever before. What does the system offer in return?
Please enlighten us with examples of when senior officers have been obliged to publically justify their operational decisions. You may wish to also add statistical data which shows how any trend is worsening over time. Then, for relevance and perspective, apply your response to senior officers in or formerly of the RLC.
 
#10
ThereIsOnlyOne said:
It could also have something to do with the fact that the Military Covenant is so out of kilter. Senior Officers are expected to make command decisions on Ops as they always have been. However, it is no longer the case where 'I was the man on the ground and made that decision out of the way I read the situation' is sufficient justification anymore. More and more we hear of Senior Officers being asked to justify situations and/or actions publicly. With the increase in operational tempo, Commanders are being asked to risk their careers more regularly than ever before. What does the system offer in return?
If anything I’d argue that in the last five years field / staff officers have become totally risk averse; pretty soon you’ll have post ICSC Majors leading packets on Ops and a total ban on booze within camp limits. But that’s by the by……….

When I was on my Tp Comd’s cse the Regt Col made us all chip in for a silver goblet or some such chuff. It was pitched to us (like we had a choice or like we’d object) that whenever someone from said TC’s cse returned to Deepshit, for a dinner night, they could request the goblet. Little did we know at the time that it would be a survivor series award. From my cse only 35% haven’t signed off (or got preggers) and half of those have put their papers in and retracted them. Is this “natural wastage?”
 
#11
Ford_Prefect said:
ThereIsOnlyOne said:
It could also have something to do with the fact that the Military Covenant is so out of kilter. Senior Officers are expected to make command decisions on Ops as they always have been. However, it is no longer the case where 'I was the man on the ground and made that decision out of the way I read the situation' is sufficient justification anymore. More and more we hear of Senior Officers being asked to justify situations and/or actions publicly. With the increase in operational tempo, Commanders are being asked to risk their careers more regularly than ever before. What does the system offer in return?
If anything I’d argue that in the last five years field / staff officers have become totally risk averse; pretty soon you’ll have post ICSC Majors leading packets on Ops and a total ban on booze within camp limits. But that’s by the by……….

When I was on my Tp Comd’s cse the Regt Col made us all chip in for a silver goblet or some such chuff. It was pitched to us (like we had a choice or like we’d object) that whenever someone from said TC’s cse returned to Deepshit, for a dinner night, they could request the goblet. Little did we know at the time that it would be a survivor series award. From my cse only 35% haven’t signed off (or got preggers) and half of those have put their papers in and retracted them. Is this “natural wastage?”
So true. So very true.

Tell me; have you actually had sight of your goblet lately? Rumour has it that they make excellent unofficial leaving presents to yourself if you're leaving the Corps.

Post ICSC Major; what's a pre-ICSC Major then?
 
R

really?_fascinating

Guest
#12
Anyone who had to pass an examination, demonstrating professional and intellectual capability in order to be eligible for selection to Major?
 
#13
really?_fascinating said:
Anyone who had to pass an examination, demonstrating professional and intellectual capability in order to be eligible for selection to Major?
Is this a wah, or are you seriously asking what it takes to become a Major in the British Army?
 
R

really?_fascinating

Guest
#14
A wah? No, an answer to your question 'what's a pre-ICSC Major?' It is one who was selected to be a Major after passing IPSE. Hence the 'pasing an examination' bit of my answer.

I know what it takes now, reports at Regimental Duty, no pan Army leveller (AJD and IPSE) and a certain amount of time. This new system means the filter that was AJD is applied later (at SO2 level) rather than at Captain level. Thus, perhaps bottom third ICSC graduates in a crap SO2 appt feel less motivated and choose to seek another career path. Equally, top third students who in the past could have reasonably expected to go to Big School while still young and energetic have to leap the same hurdles as there less talented peers - thus serving to demotivate them as well. It strikes me that ICSC rewards mediocrity and forces the very best to go through the same hoops as the very worst. Not the best approach in a competitive meritocracy.

At least in the old sytem SO3s were trained for their appointments, could shine in them and get to ACSC, whereas those who failed IPSE a couple of times could identify before the Big 30 that they were not future Generals and move on to something that suited them better. Anyone working in the Field Army can see the effect of no staff training for SO3s prior to their appointments - it is not good for SO3s, nor is it good for SO2s who spend a huge amount of time counselling SO3s in how to 'do' OSW.
 
#15
Ah, my mistake. Well put by the way.

You have however neglected one select group of individuals of course; those of us who did AJD, passed IPSE and then, just for good measure, had to make up the numbers on ICSC(L) as well. Living the dream indeed.
 
#16
The grass is truly greener.

I know somebody (RLC) currently working on building the Olympic Village who is bored rigid and intending to get back into the Army full time.
 
#17
I don't think its just the Corps, the Army as a whole is feeling this effect. People are getting out to lead what they expect will be a more balanced life. Many of my peers are saying the time away (especially on ops) and the fact that when they are home they get thrashed for duties and promotion courses are their reasons to sign off. Maybe ICSC(L) is a reason in the younger gen as well - thoroughly dull and unpopular course from what I hear.

Personally I'm staying put as I feel the benefits out way the downsides, but I think the current Op over-commitment and the number of people losing their lives is a big driver in this current exodus.
 
#18
MALDROP said:
I think the current Op over-commitment and the number of people losing their lives is a big driver in this current exodus.
Couple that with a young family, it would be no coincidence that a certain demographic might walk. I wonder if there's any useful demographic stats on this.
 
#19
really?_fascinating said:
At least in the old system SO3s were trained for their appointments, could shine in them and get to ACSC, whereas those who failed IPSE a couple of times could identify before the Big 30 that they were not future Generals and move on to something that suited them better. Anyone working in the Field Army can see the effect of no staff training for SO3s prior to their appointments - it is not good for SO3s, nor is it good for SO2s who spend a huge amount of time counselling SO3s in how to 'do' OSW.
Add to this the fact that virtually everyone cheats on MK1 and 2 and the only worthwhile staff training S03s will get these days is JOTAC, some three to four years before an appointment to the Staff! Officers of my vintage, most of whom are S03s or Regt Capts, didn’t even do JOTAC but instead spent a day on a windy hillside in Osnabruck, regurgitating stock phrases like “enfilade fire” and “manoeuvre corridors” (in 95% of cases having had zero Regimental assistance) and that was them qualified for promotion to Captain. Instead of meaningful staff training my friends and I were subjected to a couple of weeks with a variety of ETS Officers who were patently incapable of putting up a basha and from a Regimental perspective the occasional essay / exercise in the effective use of Google was seen as continuous professional development. Could this be why a great deal of Operational Staff Work currently has a shocking lack of added value utilising instead an over reliance on phrases like “direct liaison authority?”
 
#20
Every tasking that ends up on my desk from Regt Ops has 'DIRLAUTH Granted' written all over it. The phrase that means the boys and girls on the ground will do the running around to sort out some one elses laziness/incompetance/shoulder sloping, delete as required.
 

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