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DE Groundcrew Officers

#1
I heard these were in the pipeline and it is now happening at the regiments but are they a good idea, personally I don't see a great career stream for them. Unless aircrew are not going to be OCs and COs anymore. These DE officers will get placed into the roles traditionally filled by LE officers (a cheaper option I am sure). Not sure of the thinking behind them as the corps has managed without them for years. I don't disagree totally but struggle to see what it achieves by having them and in my opinion I believe that many will become disinterested very quickly and move elsewhere. I know I would if I knew that my career would most likely see me as a QM or Sqn 2IC and thats it bar a couple of HQ Sqn OCs and SO2 jobs split between LEs and DE Groundcrew officers.

I am sure that there is good reasoning behind having DE Groundcrew officers and I may not know all the facts.

Thoughts from anyone else......

Lynx
 
#2
Without putting too much thought into this, I can't imagine many young thrusters joining up as a groundcrew officer, just imagine the ribbing they'll get in the mess from the DE pilots!
 
#3
There are a few about now. And yes the one I have seen is getting a ribbing and is thinking of going aircrew lol and is also the go to guy with any jobs you can't be arrsed to do. Having spent money training them to lead and manage men the AAC will put them as odd job men and women as leading and managing men is not the AAC Officer corps strong point mainly due to their formative years commanding an aircraft as opposed to blokes, but hey thats another thread lol
 
#8
The DE Ground Officer or the Aviation Support Officer (ASO) has been introduced in line with other Arms and services (e.g. MSO in the Medical Corps). He is trained in all matters aviation less actually flying the Aircraft! Having graduated from RMAS he/she will be given the opportunity to manage and command up to 60 soldiers in the Ground support flight.
Future tours will enable them to compete for all ground posts including Adj etc....
Slots on Long Look have also been identified!!
As far as Sqn Command then the Training Sqn, HQ Sqn, RMAS, ATR's are all in the mix....
Regtl Command will include 2,6 and ATR's are the ones identified but with the changing face of aviation then who knows...(how many Regiments deploy as a whole...).
Having a DE officer with exposure to the soldiers he commands on a daily basis....not a bad thing in my book!
 
#10
not saying its a bad thing, just the very few i have seen have mainly been disgruntled and moved/moving on
Too right, why would you join the Army as an officer and then go to AAC as a ground based administrator? Bloody soul destroying watching your fellow Young officers roaring around the joint and talking about Apache this and Lynx that.

Why exactly do we need officers running the guys on the ground when the SNCOs have been doing it for years?
 
#12
The DE Ground Officer or the Aviation Support Officer (ASO) has been introduced in line with other Arms and services (e.g. MSO in the Medical Corps). He is trained in all matters aviation less actually flying the Aircraft! Having graduated from RMAS he/she will be given the opportunity to manage and command up to 60 soldiers in the Ground support flight.
Future tours will enable them to compete for all ground posts including Adj etc....
Slots on Long Look have also been identified!!
As far as Sqn Command then the Training Sqn, HQ Sqn, RMAS, ATR's are all in the mix....
Regtl Command will include 2,6 and ATR's are the ones identified but with the changing face of aviation then who knows...(how many Regiments deploy as a whole...).
Having a DE officer with exposure to the soldiers he commands on a daily basis....not a bad thing in my book!
So basically like an RLC tp comd then?
 
#13
So that means every 12-18 months the groundies get a new and improved "Boss" who will immediatley start trying to reinvent the wheel. Its been done before and its soul destroying.
 
#14
Yes why would anyone join the army except to fly aircraft? We all know that any officer who isn't in a flying suit is just an under achiever.
No but why join the AAC if you dont want to fly as a DE Officer, because even if you fail the apptitudde or interviews you can try and again and transfer from another cap badge!

So that means every 12-18 months the groundies get a new and improved "Boss" who will immediatley start trying to reinvent the wheel. Its been done before and its soul destroying.
yet has no real aviation experience to do that, but still tries!!
 
#15
Why exactly do we need officers running the guys on the ground when the SNCOs have been doing it for years?
Reading the other thread, I'd suggest the SNCOs haven't been up to much crack judging by moral and the lack of motivation with the troops? That is after all something that is firmly in the NCOs lap and not just another excuse to blame the DE commissioned for the sake of it.


The idea behind the DE ground officer was to offload DE aircrew in doing the chad jobs and allow them to actually develop as aviators, allow a dedicated flight commander to look after ground troop etc rather than a young aircrew Capt doing it. The latter possibly not being able to give his full attention on the task of managing and leading his troops due to still learning the flying game. We are very short of Capts and they tend to get shuffled off to random SO3 jobs. This equals them getting pissed off and banging out.

My concerns are that I do believe it a good thing to let a DE aircrew officer command troops as it will be the only time he will have to deal with that sort of stuff prior to sqn command. At present, an OC will not really have had to command a cross section of ranks. As a Flight Commander, he will have only dealt with SNCOs and officers. An easy task to a certain degree.

We had far too many LE Officers compared to the Army quota (mainly due to commissioning SNCOs to fill the gaps of ouor shortfall of DE Capts) so the Army Board told us to stop it. A chap goes through RMAS to lead and command. Its his job. Sticking a crusty old LE is not always the way ahead and I have seen some utter cock-sticks as LEs barely capable as Lance Jacks let alone LE officers.

True, the career prospects of the ground DE is not exactly going to get him as the next CGS but its horses for courses. Some people may find the idea of ground command (that was once the LE domain) attractive. Problems are, do we get the dross from RMAS that even the RLC wont take or do we get frustrated failed pilots? The important thing it to advertise it correctly and ensure we attract the right types to the Corps ground side.
 
#16
Not everyone wants to or can fly (med reason!?!) but might be interested in Aviation!
The WO's & Sgts mess was raped of many quality individuals with the introduction of Apache, the pull through has had a knock on effect! This has had an impact on the training and developement of the Corps and the individuals in it!
Having worked along side them, I know there are some quality NCO's in the AAC but unfortunately not enough! The AAC is propped up but not run from the Sgts mess - sad but true!
The young officers selected for ground roles have an up hill battle ahead! The AAC need to become pro active instead of re active - This young blood will help! Compared to their flying counterparts, the ground officer has a great opportunity to develop as quality officers with first hand experience of command at all levels (not as already pointed out 'dabbling' as OIC door gunners!).
Officers First - is the quote but those who dance around in romper suits are infact only interested in one thing - flying! Maybe the AAC should take a good look at itself and decide what it really wants!
 
#17
Not everyone wants to or can fly (med reason!?!) but might be interested in Aviation!
The WO's & Sgts mess was raped of many quality individuals with the introduction of Apache, the pull through has had a knock on effect! This has had an impact on the training and developement of the Corps and the individuals in it!
Having worked along side them, I know there are some quality NCO's in the AAC but unfortunately not enough! The AAC is propped up but not run from the Sgts mess - sad but true!
The young officers selected for ground roles have an up hill battle ahead! The AAC need to become pro active instead of re active - This young blood will help! Compared to their flying counterparts, the ground officer has a great opportunity to develop as quality officers with first hand experience of command at all levels (not as already pointed out 'dabbling' as OIC door gunners!).Officers First - is the quote but those who dance around in romper suits are infact only interested in one thing - flying! Maybe the AAC should take a good look at itself and decide what it really wants!
I cannot see how they will achieve this, you finish Sandhurst return to MW (possibly an attachment to an Inf Regt first) then do what?

How many jobs will be available, probably 1 in each Regt?

What will the jobs consist of, OC Sigs/MT/DG's/Handlers?

What spec trg will they recieve, MTO or Sigs trg?

Where do they go afterwards, Trg slot at MW or non flying desk job at a random HQ somewhere?

What sort of Command chain?


As much as it sounds a good idea, the AAC isn't big enough manpower wise to make extra slots for jobs that could easilly be done by a competent SNCO.
 
#19
I cannot see how they will achieve this, you finish Sandhurst return to MW (possibly an attachment to an Inf Regt first) then do what?

How many jobs will be available, probably 1 in each Regt?

What will the jobs consist of, OC Sigs/MT/DG's/Handlers?

What spec trg will they recieve, MTO or Sigs trg?

Where do they go afterwards, Trg slot at MW or non flying desk job at a random HQ somewhere?

What sort of Command chain?


As much as it sounds a good idea, the AAC isn't big enough manpower wise to make extra slots for jobs that could easilly be done by a competent SNCO.[/QUOTE
]

The ASO will complete RMAS and then attend a number of courses at MW. On completion of the courses the individual will be posted as a GSF Commander for a period of 2/3 years as such he will manage a large amount of manpower in their different tade groups (not to mention all the atts whilst deployed).
There are only a few places each year so the AAC can afford to be picky with whom they select!
As far as the employment for future posts then they will attend the pre requisite courses - RSO etc...
As flashy said it will allow the pilots to get on with flying and allow the AAC to have dedicated officers to concentrate on the manpower and supporting the flying ops!!
As the number of DE Ground officers increases then the number of LE commisions will decrease -thus making competition for LE places tougher!! Competitionis always a good thing!
 
#20
Yep, echo that squeek. What we are hoping is the AAC will finally be like most normal regts and corps where a bloke who has been selected for RMAS can actually use his newly found leadership and command skills as soon as he hits his Regt. That being command, leadership and management of his troops. As it currently is (and this isn't a slur on DE aircrew officer abilities) a DE aircrew officer spends upwards and over 3 years in the training pipeline before he gets to his unit and then spends his first year learning the business of aviating...as well as all the other secondary duties. One of those being a leader of troops. I do not see that as being a secondary duty but a primary role of an officer. Hence why it is a good theory to get the right people in to do that job.
 

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