Dawkins in the news again.

#2
One wrote: ‘Dawkins spent the best part of 10 years attacking Christianity and not raising an eyebrow. He now turns that same eye on Islam and uproar.’
 
#3
Err, Dawkins is part of a cluster of anti-religious bigots including the late Hitchens. After 9-11 they eagerly added Allah bothering to their targets as more evidence of the infamy of monotheism.
 
D

Dreamseller

Guest
#4
Err, Dawkins is part of a cluster of anti-religious bigots including the late Hitchens. After 9-11 they eagerly added Allah bothering to their targets as more evidence of the infamy of monotheism.
You may be right, but i've never heard Dawkins say that people should be killed or maimed because people don't believe what he believes.
 
T

Taffd

Guest
#5
I find it less than surprising that a group of highly educated people, who have the facilities and wherewithal to carry out research at the cutting edge, would be in receipt of more Nobel prizes than the vast majority of any other groups of people.
 
#6
I find it less than surprising that a group of highly educated people, who have the facilities and wherewithal to carry out research at the cutting edge, would be in receipt of more Nobel prizes than the vast majority of any other groups of people.
And I find it less than surprising that people who reckon that the Koran contains all the perfect knowledge a society requires have got fuck-all.
 
#7
Arguably, Dawkins represents one extreme of theistic thought and radical Moslems (and Christians for that matter) the other extreme of belief vs non-belief. I am not in a position to check (i.e. can't be arse) but I am sure he was merely stating a fact. Moslem warriors were still spreading havoc yes, but Moslem scholars kept mathematics, astronomy, medicine, art, architecture and much of classical thought alive and progressing when the rest of the west (apart from the notable exception of a few monks) was illiterally kicking seven bells of shit out of each other. The Caliphate in Spain was one of the most tolerant and enlightened societies ever; until Ferdinand and Isabella arrived with their all too familiar brand of vicious catholicism. So Dawkins is right - we should thank the Moslem religion for keeping civilisation and scholarly progress alive during the Dark Ages but after that iMoslem society was downhill to indolence and now fanaticism and pig (perhaps not the most tactful word) ignorance. What grips my gonads is the knee jerk reaction to any hint of what the chattering classes in their social ghettos think of as criticism of our 'rich multi-cultural society'. Tweeter's comment is right. OK to insult Christians or any of the symbols of Christianity, taboo otherwise.

This IS the NAAFI isn't it ? Smug, butt-ugly, self-satisfied, Guardian-reading, pinot grigio socialist LGBT bad-adminned cunts.
 
T

Taffd

Guest
#9
And I find it less than surprising that people who reckon that the Koran contains all the perfect knowledge a society requires have got fuck-all.
If they've got a recipe for a perfect society, why would they want Nobel prizes?
 
#10
Arguably, Dawkins represents one extreme of theistic thought and radical Moslems (and Christians for that matter) the other extreme of belief vs non-belief. I am not in a position to check (i.e. can't be arse) but I am sure he was merely stating a fact. Moslem warriors were still spreading havoc yes, but Moslem scholars kept mathematics, astronomy, medicine, art, architecture and much of classical thought alive and progressing when the rest of the west (apart from the notable exception of a few monks) was illiterally kicking seven bells of shit out of each other. The Caliphate in Spain was one of the most tolerant and enlightened societies ever; until Ferdinand and Isabella arrived with their all too familiar brand of vicious catholicism. So Dawkins is right - we should thank the Moslem religion for keeping civilisation and scholarly progress alive during the Dark Ages but after that iMoslem society was downhill to indolence and now fanaticism and pig (perhaps not the most tactful word) ignorance. What grips my gonads is the knee jerk reaction to any hint of what the chattering classes in their social ghettos think of as criticism of our 'rich multi-cultural society'. Tweeter's comment is right. OK to insult Christians or any of the symbols of Christianity, taboo otherwise.

This IS the NAAFI isn't it ? Smug, butt-ugly, self-satisfied, Guardian-reading, pinot grigio socialist LGBT bad-adminned cunts.
Left out rather a lot there mate, the tolerant and civilised Muslim state was destroyed by an invasion of fanatical muslim berbers ( the Wahhabis of their day) in 1010, it was this Islamic in-fighting that destroyed the Caliphate and rendered it susceptible to Christian reconquest.
 
#11
Blame the Mongols

Mongols also destroyed Baghdad when it was the Islamic center of learning. The Reconquista resulted in many ancient works being rediscovered for western Europe and this led to the Renaissance. The Mongol empire also resulted in many goods from the east reaching Europe. When the Turks took Constantinople the goods became more expensive. Christopher Columbus sails to the west to find China and so on.

When Europe was backward they were advanced and then it went the other way. Certain events can make a society a place for innovation or somewhere that burns heretics who say the Earth goes around the sun. Often in history when something bad happens people like to explain it as gods punishment.

No doubt some one will add the million other things I've not mentioned and correct me where I'm wrong.
 
#13
So Richard Dawkins claims that Muslims 'haven't contributed anything worthwhile since the Dark Ages'. He's wrong of course; they have contributed loads to global terrorism, are leading the way in new applications for incendiary chemicals and testing the corrosive effects of sulphuric acid when thrown in women's faces.
 
#14
Left out rather a lot there mate, the tolerant and civilised Muslim state was destroyed by an invasion of fanatical muslim berbers ( the Wahhabis of their day) in 1010, it was this Islamic in-fighting that destroyed the Caliphate and rendered it susceptible to Christian reconquest.
But surely it wasn't until the reconquest that the Jews in Spain began to be persecuted, as well as the remaining Moslems of course. Don't think the 'liberated' Christians were too chuffed either at the arrival of authoritarian catholicism. Although the Moslem empire was far from uniform in its scholarship or fanaticism, I still agree with Dawkins that it's been ALL downhill since the end of the mediaeval period
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
#16
'Blame the mongols'

Surely we can't say that any more?
It's fine, you're thinking of Downies, which is mongs, these are the multiple cross bred dogs
 
#17
'Blame the mongols'

Surely we can't say that any more?
Before the Mongol invasion Russian society was in some places quite democratic. The Veche of Novgorod even fired the Prince. After the Mongol invasion the Princes started to ape their overlords and became autocrats. The Novgorod Republic ended with the massacre of 1478 by the ultimate medieval autocrat Ivan the Terrible.

According to a book I'm a quarter through.
 
#18
Timeline of science and engineering in the Islamic world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 14th century onwards has fewer discoveries. Maybe an effect of the Black Death? Maybe Al-Ghazili's ideas took some time to take effect?

In Europe the Black Death caused a shortage of labour that gave the peasantry more freedom. Also with Europe being lots of Kingdoms, Principalities, Duchies and so on, radicals could always move to where they would be more tolerated.

What was the effect of the Black Death on Islamic society? Would it have been easier or more difficult to do science after it?
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#19
Timeline of science and engineering in the Islamic world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 14th century onwards has fewer discoveries. Maybe an effect of the Black Death? Maybe Al-Ghazili's ideas took some time to take effect?

In Europe the Black Death caused a shortage of labour that gave the peasantry more freedom. Also with Europe being lots of Kingdoms, Principalities, Duchies and so on, radicals could always move to where they would be more tolerated.

What was the effect of the Black Death on Islamic society? Would it have been easier or more difficult to do science after it?
Al-Ghazili wasn't quite the 2 dimensional villain that DeGrasse-Tyson's piece seems to paint. A lot of history books write him up as a reconciler of religion and science, which he was to a degree. The problem was that it always had to be on religion's terms and he did lend a lot of weight to the anti-mathematics and physics tendency that was gaining currency in Baghdad long before the Mongols sacked the place.

The Plague's effect varied throughout the Middle East with Egypt getting the worst of it. Although the time-frame that you're looking at coincides with the ascendancy of the Seljuk/Ottomans over their Mamluk (in Egypt) and Safavid (Persian) rivals and the subsequent imperial expansion. This all happened at roughly the same time European maritime expansion and so is often overlooked because of this. Ultimately though this can also be seen as the end of a contiguous Islamic civilisation and a fracturing into various different empires. A good read on this is 'After Tamerlane' by John Darwin.
 
#20
Going on amazon now RP578.

Dawkings may be a bit of a self publicising tit but religion of any hue is a bit silly.

If you think it provides comfort and solace then so does fucking Disney.
 

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