Dam busters.

old_fat_and_hairy

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#1
On Jeremy Vine show right now, the recollection of one of the crew. Tremendous stuff and great description of the damage.

Only regret was that they didn't have the mightily powerful slr. Wouldn't have needed the bombs.

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#2
I'm only surprised Jeremy cunting Vine didn't try to derail it into a discussion of the dog's name.
 
#3
Jeremy Vine has a dog?
 
#4
Why not? He uses an SLR in interviews apparently.
 

old_fat_and_hairy

LE
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#5
When he was talking to john Nicholls, who was discussing the raid and who mentioned the 42% casualty rate, vine did sharply add that Germans were killed. Nicholls agreed and gave the figures. Vine showed his liberal credentials by stressing that this should not be forgotten. Nicholls gave him a quick but succinct refresher on total war.

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Drivers_lag

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#6
When he was talking to john Nicholls, who was discussing the raid and who mentioned the 42% casualty rate, vine did sharply add that Germans were killed. Nicholls agreed and gave the figures. Vine showed his liberal credentials by stressing that this should not be forgotten. Nicholls gave him a quick but succinct refresher on total war.

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Quite right. Germans were killed. Innocent civilians and brave men from the Luftwaffe. My grandparents took in two downed Luftwaffe crew after the war while they were waiting to be repatriated. They got some shit for it too.

I met one of them many years later and he was a lovely bloke.

Doesn't mean it was wrong to try to kill him at the time. Doesn't mean he was wrong to come and drop his bombs on Liverpool and nor was it wrong for Bomber Command to drop bombs on Dresden.

I fucking despise the aplogists. Nazi Germany needed twatting and that was the only way to do it, beat it flat.
 
#7
I fucking despise the aplogists. Nazi Germany needed twatting and that was the only way to do it, beat it flat.
I don't think Bomber Command contributed that much to the outcome of the war. Most of the bombing in the early years was nowhere near on target. Even when it was, the Germans had things back to normal within a few days usually.

The strategic decision to target civilian communities didn't add that much either. Most of the blokes were away fighting. Mostly women, kids and old men were killed. All it did was strengthen the German resolve considering they're mostly stubborn cunts.
 

Drivers_lag

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#8
I don't think Bomber Command contributed that much to the outcome of the war. Most of the bombing in the early years was nowhere near on target. Even when it was, the Germans had things back to normal within a few days usually.

The strategic decision to target civilian communities didn't add that much either. Most of the blokes were away fighting. Mostly women, kids and old men were killed. All it did was strengthen the German resolve considering they're mostly stubborn cunts.
Then you need to do some serious reading, Matey. In the early days you're quite right, but towards the end of the war Bomber Command was seriously heavy duty, sending up to 1400 heavy bombers in a single raid, guided by OBOE and H2E, carrying up to 12,000 lb of bombs each. The triple raid on Dresden alone killed up to 100 000 Germans and devastated the city. (32km2)

No-one can take punishment like that and keep fighting.
 

Drivers_lag

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#9
Iv'e mentioned this before, but there's some impression that bombing was tit for tat when it wasn't at all. The Luftwaffe engaged in nusiance raids, mainly on London and Liverpool - and of course famously, Coventry.

Bomber Harris set out to flatten all of Germany and had a strike force capable of wrecking around 1/4 of a city in a single raid.

There is no question among military historians that Bomber Command won WWII.
 
#10
Then you need to do some serious reading, Matey. In the early days you're quite right, but towards the end of the war Bomber Command was seriously heavy duty, sending up to 1400 heavy bombers in a single raid, guided by OBOE and H2E, carrying up to 12,000 lb of bombs each. The triple raid on Dresden alone killed up to 100 000 Germans and devastated the city. (32km2)

No-one can take punishment like that and keep fighting.
Apart from ze Germans, who did. To the literal end when the country was overrun by ground forces.

I know the whole Bomber Command thing has been done to death and that opinions on either side are as entrenched as the Fuhrer in his bunker. It really pisses me off, though, when the Germans try to pass themselves off as some kind of innocent victim of naked English aggression and cunts like Vine back them up to spark a debate on his radio show.

The commemoration of a remarkable act like Op CHASTISE in way detracts from the remembrance of all those who died and I just wish some of the think cunts in our media could recognise that.
 

Drivers_lag

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#11
Apart from ze Germans, who did. To the literal end when the country was overrun by ground forces.

I know the whole Bomber Command thing has been done to death and that opinions on either side are as entrenched as the Fuhrer in his bunker. It really pisses me off, though, when the Germans try to pass themselves off as some kind of innocent victim of naked English aggression and cunts like Vine back them up to spark a debate on his radio show.

The commemoration of a remarkable act like Op CHASTISE in way detracts from the remembrance of all those who died and I just wish some of the think cunts in our media could recognise that.
Ze Germans shouldn't have started it. Bomber Harris was a fucking savage, no two ways about it. He measured success in acreage, even when Portal was trying to convince people that he didn't. The Americans were flying in daylight to try to do precision raids. Harris flew at night because he just wanted to wreck cities. He alternated waves of HE and incendiaries so that he could wreck, burn and then bomb the emergency services.

Things might have been different if precision bombing was possible back then, but it wasn't.. so if you want to hit the Krupp Works, you have to wreck the town that it's in and hope to hit that too.

Ze Germans are a bit upset that Harris was pretty transparently interested in area bombing, but it really is a moot point. The Americans were area bombing too - it's just that they were trying not to.

But if Ze Germans hadn't started it, there would have been no whirlwind to reap, so Herr Hitler is the man to thank, not Bomber Harris.
 
#12
Then you need to do some serious reading, Matey. In the early days you're quite right, but towards the end of the war Bomber Command was seriously heavy duty, sending up to 1400 heavy bombers in a single raid, guided by OBOE and H2E, carrying up to 12,000 lb of bombs each. The triple raid on Dresden alone killed up to 100 000 Germans and devastated the city. (32km2)

No-one can take punishment like that and keep fighting.
How come the Germans fought to the very end then? What did Dresden achieve besides killing tens of thousands of refugees and flattening houses?

Don't get me wrong. I don't give a flying fuck that hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed, but I don't believe the bombing achieved much in strategic terms to the final outcome.
 
#13
Ze Germans shouldn't have started it. Bomber Harris was a fucking savage, no two ways about it. He measured success in acreage, even when Portal was trying to convince people that he didn't. The Americans were flying in daylight to try to do precision raids. Harris flew at night because he just wanted to wreck cities. He alternated waves of HE and incendiaries so that he could wreck, burn and then bomb the emergency services.

Things might have been different if precision bombing was possible back then, but it wasn't.. so if you want to hit the Krupp Works, you have to wreck the town that it's in and hope to hit that too.

Ze Germans are a bit upset that Harris was pretty transparently interested in area bombing, but it really is a moot point. The Americans were area bombing too - it's just that they were trying not to.

But if Ze Germans hadn't started it, there would have been no whirlwind to reap, so Herr Hitler is the man to thank, not Bomber Harris.

Cool.

What's your point?
 
#17
Maybe Hitler just didn't like scousers. No other fucker does.
Maybe he was just trying to help them corner the market in 'Fuckin' boss second hand Jeep wheels' by providing a reaady source of bricks to prop said Jeeps up on when they came off the boat.
 

Drivers_lag

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#18
How come the Germans fought to the very end then? What did Dresden achieve besides killing tens of thousands of refugees and flattening houses?

Don't get me wrong. I don't give a flying fuck that hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed, but I don't believe the bombing achieved much in strategic terms to the final outcome.
Because Hitler was a knob?

This is what the apologists say - that Dresden was unnecessary. But it wasn't. All out war was still being prosecuted, so it was a perfectly legitimate target and Harris hit it hard.

Harris plainly stated his aim of flattening Germany town by town.

How can you fight if you don't have any towns, any infastructure, any transport or logistics or economy and no-one has got anywhere to live?
 
#19
How come the Germans fought to the very end then? What did Dresden achieve besides killing tens of thousands of refugees and flattening houses?

Don't get me wrong. I don't give a flying fuck that hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed, but I don't believe the bombing achieved much in strategic terms to the final outcome.
IIRC at the end of the war Hitler pushed everyone he could get into uniform, including old men and young boys, to take up arms for the Third Reich.
 
#20
IIRC at the end of the war Hitler pushed everyone he could get into uniform, including old men and young boys, to take up arms for the Third Reich.

True, but that wasn't because all the military age manpower had been killed in bombing raids was it? Nor were those same bombing raids some kind of British conspiracy to destroy every German ever.

None of which, like any of this endlessly rehashed argument, detracts from the fact that some very brave men did some extraordinary things for which we should all be grateful.
 

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