CVF and Carrier Strike thread

lert

LE
It could have done with a larger carrier to land on. I think the point was that it could recover in sea states that would have made conventional carrier operations dangerous with Hermes sized carriers.

Scimitars or Sea Vixens in the South Atlantic as opposed to the Sea Harrier?

Back to the present - am I wrong for being a tad disappointed not to see two or three Merlins operation from Prince of Wales in a surveillance role?
It could have done with a larger carrier to land on. I think the point was that it could recover in sea states that would have made conventional carrier operations dangerous with Hermes sized carriers.

Scimitars or Sea Vixens in the South Atlantic as opposed to the Sea Harrier?

Back to the present - am I wrong for being a tad disappointed not to see two or three Merlins operation from Prince of Wales in a surveillance role?
It reeks of WIFfery, but had Hermes sailed on as a strike carrier into the 70s and 80s then surely it would have been Buccaneer and Sea Vixen? Certainly that was her Air Group until 70 at least and she was never big enough for the F-4. K or otherwise.
 

Yokel

LE
No I meant would the Scimitar or Sea Vixen have coped with South Atlantic conditions like the Sea Harrier did? Common sense says no. Small conventional carriers are fine if you are content with lots of accidents and severe limits.

I wonder if that helps explain why the RN was happy to replace fixed wing ASW aircraft with helicopters?
 
It reeks of WIFfery, but had Hermes sailed on as a strike carrier into the 70s and 80s then surely it would have been Buccaneer and Sea Vixen? Certainly that was her Air Group until 70 at least and she was never big enough for the F-4. K or otherwise.

Neither was HMS Victorious.
 
Given that a SHOL consists of relative wind, pitch and roll, and ship size only impacts on two of those, I doubt it.
A SHOL is a reflection of pilot workload in launch and recovery rather than absolute physical limitations of the aircraft. The relative wind element is also affected by any superstructure affecting the airflow - so theoretically, better airflow from a larger ship with less superstructure encroachment may have improved the SHOL.

But the principal difference between STOVL and CTOL operations is essentially the relative speed of approach to a moving touchdown point. Easier to judge with minimal speed difference and less sensitivity to ship pitch.
 

Yokel

LE
A SHOL is a reflection of pilot workload in launch and recovery rather than absolute physical limitations of the aircraft. The relative wind element is also affected by any superstructure affecting the airflow - so theoretically, better airflow from a larger ship with less superstructure encroachment may have improved the SHOL.

But the principal difference between STOVL and CTOL operations is essentially the relative speed of approach to a moving touchdown point. Easier to judge with minimal speed difference and less sensitivity to ship pitch.

It is an intercept task. I suppose an analogy might be firing a shot over the bow compared to firing warning shots. Warning shots are less precise in terms of where they go....

Talking of which, some persons in another place are suggesting that there is no difference (in terms of operating limits and training requirements) between CTOL and STOVL "as all carrier landings are automated".
 

Moglington

Old-Salt
Back to the present - am I wrong for being a tad disappointed not to see two or three Merlins operation from Prince of Wales in a surveillance role?

Are you referring to it being off the coast of cornwall for the G7? If so (other than to get the Sqn some sea time and practice at sea) what would be the point in embarking to achieve that 'surveillance role' when they are already based at Culdrose 5mins down the road.
 
SCADS (Ships Containerised Air Defence System) IIRC.

Skyhook! Madder than a bucket of frogs.....


Blake - clue is in the deck lettering.
One pilot demonstrated a fair attempt at landing on a container ship. Much to the suprise of the Spanish captain and crew.

4harriercargo-1.jpg
Royal-Navy-Sea-Harrier-Alraigo-Incident-(Att)-Cropped.jpg
 

Yokel

LE
Are you referring to it being off the coast of cornwall for the G7? If so (other than to get the Sqn some sea time and practice at sea) what would be the point in embarking to achieve that 'surveillance role' when they are already based at Culdrose 5mins down the road.

Yes.

1. Sea time for the aircrew and maintainers.
2. More aircraft embarked for developing the skills of the ship's company.
3. More aircraft on deck makes a more impressive backdrop.
4. It is part of the Marlin HM2 role.
5. I have no doubt that ASW with a couple of them embarked will be part of the FOST period for Prince of Wales.
8. It? Que?

Talking of Merlin - some news!
 

Yokel

LE
What was the point of this Twitter update from last night? I was expecting to see some rotary wing action - maybe some Merlins being embarked?

 

Yokel

LE
CO 820NAS might know a thing or two about Merlin and says:

“In terms of the number of people we need to operate those aircraft, we will have approximately 60 aircrew and about 130 engineers and other support staff. That will give us the ability to fly aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines, constantly supporting and protecting the carrier and the strike group.”

Well that sounds alright to me. Plus the AW101 is still being built for Norway (SAR role) among others, and I wonder if this will herald buying a good stock of spares? There were a few Merlins in the air from Culdrose earlier this week, but none aboard HMS Prince of Wales just yet.
 

Yokel

LE
Those Apaches look tiny on the flight deck!



Presumably they will benefit from operating alongside helicopters of a different type(s). What can we see in the background here:



Back to CSG21: There is sadly no report of exactly what ASW and others tasks 820NAS were performing during Exercise Steadfast Defender 21, but they have been busy.



They can HIFR too - during the Falklands War Sea Kings were often detached from the carriers to work with one of the Type 22 frigates and other ships.

 
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CO 820NAS might know a thing or two about Merlin and says:

“In terms of the number of people we need to operate those aircraft, we will have approximately 60 aircrew and about 130 engineers and other support staff. That will give us the ability to fly aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines, constantly supporting and protecting the carrier and the strike group.”

Well that sounds alright to me. Plus the AW101 is still being built for Norway (SAR role) among others, and I wonder if this will herald buying a good stock of spares? There were a few Merlins in the air from Culdrose earlier this week, but none aboard HMS Prince of Wales just yet.

the only things that ’heralds’ is that Merlin - still - despite a maximum effort to rebuild and improve it, still requires a huge engineering effort to provide any useful availability.
Drones to replace them for AEW ASAP and cannibalisation of the shrinking core fleet is the future. There simply ain’t enough for all the taskings already and we ain’t never buying none more.
 

Yokel

LE
Did you miss the bit about flying aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines - with seven helicopters?

Anyway:



Are they preparing to embark some more cabs soon?
 
Did you miss the bit about flying aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines - with seven helicopters?

Anyway:



Are they preparing to embark some more cabs soon?

nope, read it

which bit of we’ve maxed out the Merlin to achieve that have you missed?

we’re now in a race between attrition and its replacement, and its replacement will not be a Merlin.
 

Yokel

LE
Well - it was achievable. Other Merlin tasking is going ahead. Perhaps the powers that be could invest in some spares? Better late than never.

Spares have always been an easy target for the penny pinchers.
 
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