CVF and Carrier Strike thread

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
If you did away with the ones on alert on deck, you could maintain two on station with six aircraft. I have to say I wonder why you need ones on alert on deck if you have Merlin equipped frigates - what am I missing?

You may not have Merlin on the frigates; and for a serious submarine threat, you may want aircraft at alert ready to go if, for instance, your airborne aircraft have expended weapons (remembering that you may be classifying by ordnance, engaging POSSUB early, or taking lower-SSPK shots on a fast, alerted target, to keep them defensive and evading so they're much less able to effectively threaten you)
 
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Converteam (now part of GE) developed a small scale version in the late 90s. From memory, it was never developed to full scale and never launched a jet, not even on a land test site.
 
So the British developed a Electrical one?
You said invented, which I read as being first. You can develop something while not being the originator.

I'm not in anyway disparaging the British contributions to naval aviation since anyone with any knowledge of military history knows that it was their invention of the steam catapult, angled deck and mirror landing system that is the foundation of modern carrier aviation. Certainly the USN acknowledges this.
 
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Yokel

LE
You may not have Merlin on the frigates; and for a serious submarine threat, you may want aircraft at alert ready to go if, for instance, your airborne aircraft have expended weapons (remembering that you may be classifying by ordnance, engaging POSSUB early, or taking lower-SSPK shots on a fast, alerted target, to keep them defensive and evading so they're much less able to effectively threaten you)

I was suggesting that it is at least worthwhile to have alert aircraft nearer the scene of the action - aboard frigates and destroyers. I was also thinking of Wildcat armed with ASW weapons and directed by a Merlin.

Experience shows that six aircraft seems to be the norm for a carrierborne ASW Merlin squadron, it has been aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth and was when the Merlins were embarked aboard the old CVS. Hopefully that number could be expanded if needed. I was merely trying to explain that if 820 had taken nine aircraft with them, including the three Crowsnest cabs, then that would mean six available and fitted for ASW, and that was the norm.

I presume that HMS Prince Of Wales will embark some Merlins for her FOST training. If a pair of HM2s appear aboard her flight deck of in the next few weeks then it will prove my theory that 820 could not take all the carrier designated cabs with them. I expect that someone will post any such news...

Obviously more aircraft equals more capability.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
You said invented, which I read as being first. You can develop something while not being the originator.

I'm not in anyway disparaging the British contributions to naval aviation since anyone with any knowledge of military history knows that it was their invention of the steam catapult, angled deck and mirror landing system that is the foundation of modern carrier aviation. Certainly the USN acknowledges this.
Meh. We also developed stealth ships.

You used to have 35 frigates, now we have 13. We're told they do the same things.

I just know... y'know?
 
I presume that HMS Prince Of Wales will embark some Merlins for her FOST training. If a pair of HM2s appear aboard her flight deck of in the next few weeks then it will prove my theory that 820 could not take all the carrier designated cabs with them. I expect that someone will post any such news...

Obviously more aircraft equals more capability.
You're assuming there's such a thing as "carrier designated cabs".

814 or 824 are perfectly capable of proving a couple of HM2 for PWLS for a week or two. 845/846 may send HC4 instead. Unlikely to be more than a couple of any type.

The number of HM2 on Fortis is almost certainly a function of what the MHF feel they can provide for seven months, given funding and other commitments.
 

Yokel

LE
Funding - not enough.
Spares - not enough.
Commitments - too many.
Airframes having the Crowsnest modifications.....

I think that the Merlin HM2 squadrons pool their aircraft. But your statement says it all - in a real crisis things can change rapidly. As for POW and her work up, perhaps I was mislead by looking at the Twitter feed from QE and noting that when she was last doing FOST training, ASW exercises were on the agenda. I also wonder about the ones having the mods to take Crowsnest, and wonder if 824 NAS will be taking some for Joint Warrior.

Meanwhile, there is some debate as to were to put the various helicopters:



The last hurrah of the CVS was to put nine Marlin HM2 aboard Illustrious for Exercise Deep Blue in mid 2014 - with another Merlin aboard a frigate. Personally I half expected to see that, with the emphasis on ASW and NATO. I guess things will be easier in the NATO theatre with regards ASW assets - given Atlantic and Arctic commitments. Prince Of Wales has a major NATO flagship role next year.

Also, why are we putting the Junglies aboard an RFA?

 
Funding - not enough.
Spares - not enough.
Commitments - too many.
Airframes having the Crowsnest modifications.....

I think that the Merlin HM2 squadrons pool their aircraft. But your statement says it all - in a real crisis things can change rapidly. As for POW and her work up, perhaps I was mislead by looking at the Twitter feed from QE and noting that when she was last doing FOST training, ASW exercises were on the agenda. I also wonder about the ones having the mods to take Crowsnest, and wonder if 824 NAS will be taking some for Joint Warrior.

Meanwhile, there is some debate as to were to put the various helicopters:



The last hurrah of the CVS was to put nine Marlin HM2 aboard Illustrious for Exercise Deep Blue in mid 2014 - with another Merlin aboard a frigate. Personally I half expected to see that, with the emphasis on ASW and NATO. I guess things will be easier in the NATO theatre with regards ASW assets - given Atlantic and Arctic commitments. Prince Of Wales has a major NATO flagship role next year.

Also, why are we putting the Junglies aboard an RFA?


Heaven forbid, on the CSG Battle Staff there might be an extremely swept up team of aircrew, groundcrew & logs specialists who might, just might, have put a metric f**tonne of effort into thinking through the force disposition of air assets across the Task Gp.
 
Heaven forbid, on the CSG Battle Staff there might be an extremely swept up team of aircrew, groundcrew & logs specialists who might, just might, have put a metric f**tonne of effort into thinking through the force disposition of air assets across the Task Gp.
The junglies probably didn't want the bullshit that goes with being on a capital pussers grey!
 

Yokel

LE
Heaven forbid, on the CSG Battle Staff there might be an extremely swept up team of aircrew, groundcrew & logs specialists who might, just might, have put a metric f**tonne of effort into thinking through the force disposition of air assets across the Task Gp.

Good to see that you think so highly of the CSG staff and NCHQ planners.

The problem is the public who may not understand that future deployments will be different. Aircraft numbers and types will vary - criticising the relatively low number of ASW cabs without looking at the wider context is like criticising the fact that not every Lightning in the UK is being deployed.

Likewise several PWO(U) types have educated me that you collocate Pingers on the carrier if you can. If the T23s were both carrying Merlins, some of us would worry about the lack of Wildcats armed with Martlet etc. The Wildcat is shorter ranged, so logic suggests you put them in ship further out....

Whether a frigate carries a Wildcat or a Merlin at any particular time depends on her mission, again that is sometimes missed by the public and media.

There is no such thing as 'typical'.

The junglies probably didn't want the bullshit that goes with being on a capital pussers grey!

Or they are doing lift and shift jobs so the ship full of stores is a good place for them? But can they perform SAR for the carrier from another ship?
 
Good to see that you think so highly of the CSG staff and NCHQ planners.

I don't, I think they're utter spastics.
The problem is the public who may not understand that future deployments will be different. Aircraft numbers and types will vary - criticising the relatively low number of ASW cabs without looking at the wider context is like criticising the fact that not every Lightning in the UK is being deployed.

Joe Public gives not a flying f**k whether there are Wildcats or Merlins on board HMS Hoopstretcher.......
Likewise several PWO(U) types have educated me that you collocate Pingers on the carrier if you can. If the T23s were both carrying Merlins, some of us would worry about the lack of Wildcats armed with Martlet etc. The Wildcat is shorter ranged, so logic suggests you put them in ship further out....

If the Wildcat blokes & girls are pulling themselves silly at the prospect of going up against the PLA(N) with Martlet missiles then they deserve everything that is coming to them.
 

Yokel

LE
I don't, I think they're utter spastics.


Joe Public gives not a flying f**k whether there are Wildcats or Merlins on board HMS Hoopstretcher.......


If the Wildcat blokes & girls are pulling themselves silly at the prospect of going up against the PLA(N) with Martlet missiles then they deserve everything that is coming to them.

Martlet was designed with the likes of the IRGCN in mind, not the PLA(N). The small boat threat is real and Martlet is intended to kill FIACs. Anyone advocating using it against major warships in preference to other weapons needs to see a Psychiatrist.
 

bob231

War Hero
@Yokel - please note the abbreviation is PWLS, not POW. POW has a somewhat different meaning.

I'll bow out now, chaps, this is getting a bit speculative for me.
 
So where is the new thread? Lots of video on youtube showing the departure (or just clips of various ships of the task force leaving Portsmouth once).
 
So where is the new thread? Lots of video on youtube showing the departure (or just clips of various ships of the task force leaving Portsmouth once).
Jack wakes up, Jack has a dump, Jack goes to work, Jack does his job, latest 123 part blockbuster BBC series. Rest of the world? Not really bothered.
 

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