CVF and Carrier Strike thread

Aye, the reason I suggested Ikara was a compliment to ASROC, as both I think have a range of 10-12 nm or so. But a modern version of Ikara with a turbofan I’d have thought could push out easily to 50-100 nm, and indeed cover that distance at around 500kt making it much faster to react than a rotary asset.

Your second point would be a key limitiation though, I was thinking purely in terms of the attack.
Ikara is a one shot affair. With a rotary "drone" you can go back to the ship, fit another torpedo, and have another go at the target or a different target at a later time. You can fit a lot more torpedoes by themselves in storage than you can Ikaras.

Also as mentioned by another poster, the unmanned drone can do multiple different jobs by fitting a different payload underneath.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
This will be the RN that is flush with cash then?

As opposed to the RN that is having to consider retiring frigates early, retiring certain minehunters, shove a chunk of the RFA into ER, disband 736NAS. That RN?

The eight HM1 in storage may or may not be worth doing. It may actually be better to get LH to build new frames (with suitable attention paid to known frailties) as part of the rotorcraft strategy. But right now there are crocodiles closer to the canoe. A couple of proper CSG deployments will focus minds on what the priorities are.

What is certain is that a 40 year old design - in production or not - with limited payload / range (what is the endurance of a Seahawk on a dipping profile with sonobuoys and 4 LWT?) is not the answer.

new ASW Merlins? In case we forget, the order was cut 20 years ago when the eye bleeding cost of the things was realised. After 20 years sitting on ice, new ones won’t have magically gotten more affordable, especially if you try and design out the inherent problems on a short run. And if the problems was fixable, they would already have been, they hasn’t, go figure.


But we digress - a couple of CSG deployments will prove CSG + Normal jogging into just 25 available Merlins for ASW/AEW don’t go.

and at that point, the rather thorny problem of not enough ASW helos has to be grasped.

Ringfence all the Merlins for the Carriers and everyone else makes do with a junglie or Wildcat?
Or buy a load of affordable medium weight ASW helos that can also provide as much ASuW muscle as a Wildcat for the smaller war canoes?
And when they day dawns, the only game in town is NH-90 or SH-60.....pick one.


and the endurance of a tooled up SH-60?
190 minutes, which is about 190 minutes more than a non existent FAA ASW helicopter.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
I struggle to see the point of a UAV whose only purpose is carrying torpedoes - if all you need is a bomb truck, why go to all the complexity of making something that has to land again?

Dust off the plans for Ikara, fit a nice, efficient new engine and just launch it on a one-way trip from the ship.

Wasp, Wildcat were/are just manned drone helos to carry a torpedo to point ‘x’ and drop on command.

Ikara?
ASROC is the aspiration.
 
This was released in January:


The repalcement for MH-60R/S Seahawk and MQ-8 Fire Scout unmanned helicopter.

So any thoughts of buying those would be bad news for us if the ROI comes back with something we could jointly purchase?

Interesting the MQ-8 Fire Scout with was was being discussed before, I wonder if they will get a response for a new UAV the "Loyal Wingman".

Link to article:

 

bob231

War Hero
Bear in mind that adopting the MH-90 would mean either completely redesigning flight decks or having an expensive modification made to the aircraft.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
This was released in January:


The repalcement for MH-60R/S Seahawk and MQ-8 Fire Scout unmanned helicopter.

So any thoughts of buying those would be bad news for us if the ROI comes back with something we could jointly purchase?

Interesting the MQ-8 Fire Scout with was was being discussed before, I wonder if they will get a response for a new UAV the "Loyal Wingman".

Link to article:



We've signed up to both FVL programmes, but they are a long way out.
The future is 'anything but European'
 
We've signed up to both FVL programmes, but they are a long way out.
The future is 'anything but European'
I didn’t know we were involved, good to know, I don’t mind that as long as we keep involved, but I fcuking hate ITAR.

I know we have similar issue (German is preventing us servicing some parts of the Typhoon for Saudi because of Yemen) but I have a personal issue with ITAR which cost me my job, although in hindsight it was the company and lack of training and I got a much better job.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
This was released in January:


The repalcement for MH-60R/S Seahawk and MQ-8 Fire Scout unmanned helicopter.

So any thoughts of buying those would be bad news for us if the ROI comes back with something we could jointly purchase?

Interesting the MQ-8 Fire Scout with was was being discussed before, I wonder if they will get a response for a new UAV the "Loyal Wingman".

Link to article:



Of more interest is this snippet

£650 million buys you 24 SH-60R's and a way out of our current ASW help black hole.
Thats half the price per copy the Philippines paid for a pair of Wildcats, and we were paying an eye watering £95 million a copy for a Merlin 20 years ago.

 
Of more interest is this snippet

£650 million buys you 24 SH-60R's and a way out of our current ASW help black hole.
Thats half the price per copy the Philippines paid for a pair of Wildcats, and we were paying an eye watering £95 million a copy for a Merlin 20 years ago.

Yeah but why pay anything for a 10 year period, we have what we have got, if any of the discussuions on here are correct, then it ranges from no issues to a lack of capability, but introducing a new platform for 10 years, probably less by the time a procurement and IOC capability, maybe 8 years?

Not just the ticket price, some have mentioned modifying ships, training ground crew, getting spares....it seems to me a non starter.

Also, how long until we really need to worry about Chinese Subs outside of the South China Sea, if the Idians have them, invite them on our jollies down there, for Russia, NATO has a lot of ASW combined and we have P-8.
 
new ASW Merlins? In case we forget, the order was cut 20 years ago when the eye bleeding cost of the things was realised. After 20 years sitting on ice, new ones won’t have magically gotten more affordable, especially if you try and design out the inherent problems on a short run. And if the problems was fixable, they would already have been, they hasn’t, go figure.
The order was reduced when those nasty Russians and their submarine threat went away.
and the endurance of a tooled up SH-60?
190 minutes, which is about 190 minutes more than a non existent FAA ASW helicopter.

A dipping profile with 4 LWT is not the same as sitting above mother on HIFR until the aircrew need a pee. Which is the only way you'll get the fuel capacity of an MH60 to stretch to over three hours.
 
Yeah but why pay anything for a 10 year period, we have what we have got, if any of the discussuions on here are correct, then it ranges from no issues to a lack of capability, but introducing a new platform for 10 years, probably less by the time a procurement and IOC capability, maybe 8 years?

Not just the ticket price, some have mentioned modifying ships, training ground crew, getting spares....it seems to me a non starter.

Funny you should mention that - somebody is a big fan of comparing fly away prices of US Kit with the total project cost including spares development training etc of Non US kit.


Seahawk instead of Merlin makes sense perhaps if the entire fleet were pingers.

But I doubt very much if Sea hawk would have replaced Lynx and seaking and im even more sceptical that the number of ASW cabs would have increased over the sea king fleet.

Then of course theres the end of the cold war and we would now be operating a fleet of 30 ASW seahawks - including trying to mount crows nest on the and somebody would be berating the navy for not buying a big long ranged beastie when it had the chance
 
new ASW Merlins? In case we forget, the order was cut 20 years ago when the eye bleeding cost of the things was realised. After 20 years sitting on ice, new ones won’t have magically gotten more affordable, especially if you try and design out the inherent problems on a short run. And if the problems was fixable, they would already have been, they hasn’t, go figure.
They intended to go all Merlin until 2008 and the subsequent 2010 Defence Review - it went the way of the Harrier. Go Figure
But we digress - a couple of CSG deployments will prove CSG + Normal jogging into just 25 available Merlins for ASW/AEW don’t go.

and at that point, the rather thorny problem of not enough ASW helos has to be grasped.

Ringfence all the Merlins for the Carriers and everyone else makes do with a junglie or Wildcat?
Or buy a load of affordable medium weight ASW helos that can also provide as much ASuW muscle as a Wildcat for the smaller war canoes?
And when they day dawns, the only game in town is NH-90 or SH-60.....pick one.


and the endurance of a tooled up SH-60?
190 minutes, which is about 190 minutes more than a non existent FAA ASW helicopter.
Some strawman stuff "Because."
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
The order was reduced when those nasty Russians and their submarine threat went away.
A dipping profile with 4 LWT is not the same as sitting above mother on HIFR until the aircrew need a pee. Which is the only way you'll get the fuel capacity of an MH60 to stretch to over three hours.

which totally explains the shocked questions and embarrassed answers to committees at the time and the steely refusal to buy another one ever since despite not enough ASW helos for tasks.

I’m assuming that’s a typo as MH-60’s can stay up for 7 hours.
RAN state an endurance fully loaded for ASW missions of just under 3 hours for their SH-60’s.

but we digress, compare apples to apples.
Whats the endurance of a Wildcat, twice the price, no sonar, no sonobuoys, and a pair of torpedoes?
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Yeah but why pay anything for a 10 year period, we have what we have got, if any of the discussuions on here are correct, then it ranges from no issues to a lack of capability, but introducing a new platform for 10 years, probably less by the time a procurement and IOC capability, maybe 8 years?

Not just the ticket price, some have mentioned modifying ships, training ground crew, getting spares....it seems to me a non starter.

Also, how long until we really need to worry about Chinese Subs outside of the South China Sea, if the Idians have them, invite them on our jollies down there, for Russia, NATO has a lot of ASW combined and we have P-8.

We won’t be buying anything shiny and new in 10 years time, 15 maybe.
we’ll do what we always do, pretend everything’s great, and @2030, spend another load of cash to extend the surviving Merlins to 2035-40, do less with less, and declare it was always the cunning plan.
 
which totally explains the shocked questions and embarrassed answers to committees at the time and the steely refusal to buy another one ever since despite not enough ASW helos for tasks
Except that once the RBNF went away, the requirement for ASW was reduced in perception (if not reality), which meant that anyone asking for money of any sort to increase numbers would not have got through the door.

I’m assuming that’s a typo as MH-60’s can stay up for 7 hours.
RAN state an endurance fully loaded for ASW missions of just under 3 hours for their SH-60’s.

There's a tiny problem with that number. HOSTAC tells you that the SH60F (the one with the dipping sonar) has a disposable load (MTOW-basic) of around 3500kg. Adding 4 LWT weighs 1500kg, which takes your disposable load down to 2000kg. Take another 250kg off for the aircrew and give yourself another 250kg for minimum fuel.

Which means you have a potential maximum fuel load of ~1500kg. That's nowhere near 3 hours, even at max conserve....let alone dipping.
 
Of more interest is this snippet

£650 million buys you 24 SH-60R's and a way out of our current ASW help black hole.
Thats half the price per copy the Philippines paid for a pair of Wildcats, and we were paying an eye watering £95 million a copy for a Merlin 20 years ago.

"The initial contract awarded May 14 is for the airframes. Additional contracts are expected for logistics, sustainment and support of India’s fleet, which will account for the remainder of the $2.6 billion laid out in the LOA signed in February. Also included in the agreement are six Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters for $980 million

ETA that last sentence seems to be wrong/misleading. $2.6b is just for the ASW cabs and support not the AH. I guess part of the same agreement but a seperate bill

 
Last edited:

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
There's a tiny problem with that number. HOSTAC tells you that the SH60F (the one with the dipping sonar) has a disposable load (MTOW-basic) of around 3500kg. Adding 4 LWT weighs 1500kg, which takes your disposable load down to 2000kg. Take another 250kg off for the aircrew and give yourself another 250kg for minimum fuel.

Which means you have a potential maximum fuel load of ~1500kg. That's nowhere near 3 hours, even at max conserve....let alone dipping.

Look, I've just been over to Wikipedia, and it says that the SH-60 can carry two Mk 46 torpedoes, and two Mk 50 torpedoes, and two Mk 54 torpedoes, and eight Hellfires, and a Penguin ASM; so that's 7,000lb of armament, so you are wrong right away.

And it says that the SH-60 has a mission endurance of over four hours, and a range of 450 miles, so that means it can carry six torpedoes and eight Hellfires and a Penguin out to 450 miles, hang around for four hours killing all the enemy there, then return to base! There's no British helicopter that could do that!

I know this must be true, because the numbers are on Wikipedia, which is right about everything all the time.
 
Except that once the RBNF went away, the requirement for ASW was reduced in perception (if not reality), which meant that anyone asking for money of any sort to increase numbers would not have got through the door.
(...)
I don't know how many Photex's there are on ARRSE, but the one over on the the Atlantic Futures Forum thread has been busy yesterday and today telling anyone who will listen that Russian submarines are pathetic piles of scrap and not a threat to anyone and that therefore the UK doesn't need more any more ASW capability than it already has.

Meanwhile the Photex on this thread is running about saying the UK leadership are utter failures because they doesn't recognise the crying need for more ASW helicopters and they must, absolutely must buy some American kit immediately.

I suppose we should be used to it by now.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Except that once the RBNF went away, the requirement for ASW was reduced in perception (if not reality), which meant that anyone asking for money of any sort to increase numbers would not have got through the door.



There's a tiny problem with that number. HOSTAC tells you that the SH60F (the one with the dipping sonar) has a disposable load (MTOW-basic) of around 3500kg. Adding 4 LWT weighs 1500kg, which takes your disposable load down to 2000kg. Take another 250kg off for the aircrew and give yourself another 250kg for minimum fuel.

Which means you have a potential maximum fuel load of ~1500kg. That's nowhere near 3 hours, even at max conserve....let alone dipping.

except the standard mission load for an SH-60 is two torpedoes.....


now about the Merlins rather dire hot/high performance? So dire, the RAF kept the geriatric Puma in preference to it.
 
Last edited:

Latest Threads

Top