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CVF and Carrier Strike thread

I fully agree about the AEW role; surely the answer is to prioritise the aircraft for that task and to buy something else for ASW?
Which brings us full circle. Nothing else does ASW to the extent required. Not enough onboard system operators, endurance, sonobuoys and torpedoes.

Not 60, not NH90. Both modified troop lifters, not ASW specialists. Hanging a dipping sonar and one or two mk46s off the cab doesn't change that.
 
The Army think that it is crap and that the answer to the Merlin question is more Chinooks.
With all due respect, the Army don't want anything other than a Black Hawk, or a Chinook and in due course, whatever comes out of FVL.

This discussion is about ASW helicopters.
 

PhotEx

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Which brings us full circle. Nothing else does ASW to the extent required. Not enough onboard system operators, endurance, sonobuoys and torpedoes.

Not 60, not NH90. Both modified troop lifters, not ASW specialists. Hanging a dipping sonar and one or two mk46s off the cab doesn't change that.

I see, so other top tier close Allie Navy’s are buying many hundreds of SH-60 because they are crap?
Shirley one would see the light over the last 20 years and buy Merlin!
The market, that’s the market with very deep pockets, certainly think the SH-60R is the better choice.

sales of ASW Merlins since 2000 - that will be none then
sales of SH-60’s since 2000 - that will be many hundreds

Merlin has become the RNs Nimrod, everyone knows it’s a lot crap, but everyone’s too embarrassed to admit it and drive a stake through its heart, and plods on sinking vast sums into a ‘world beating’ helicopter that no one else did, or would dream of buying - rapidly reaching its eagerly anticipated OSD.
 

PhotEx

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On ROPs
With all due respect, the Army don't want anything other than a Black Hawk, or a Chinook and in due course, whatever comes out of FVL.

This discussion is about ASW helicopters.

well, if we want to go back that far, the RN didn’t want Merlin either, they wanted a smaller twin engine Sea King replacement - and thanks to Heseltine, ended up with a giant vastly overcomplex transport helicopter pretending to be an ASW helo,
 
As you are well aware, those 60 frames are being bought because they are available and off the shelf. It doesn't mean they do ASW as we would wish to do it. It's a bit like saying the FREMM is an ASW ship.......
 

PhotEx

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Merlin - 19.5m long; MH60R 19.7m long. Plus because the latter is a Seahawk variant, it has an awkward wheel layout which means it’s a “reverse tricycle”, so needs more deck space to land in.

Wrong.
SH-60’s can and do fit just fine on the flight decks of all the RNs Frigates and Destroyers,
 
We're not doing that nonsense again with your conspiracy theory spotter website. Those who wrote the SR were quite clear what they wanted. - and it isn't what's on your website.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
As you are well aware, those 60 frames are being bought because they are available and off the shelf. It doesn't mean they do ASW as we would wish to do it. It's a bit like saying the FREMM is an ASW ship.......

‘as we wish it to do’.... the bane of U.K. defence procurement, the Unique Operational Requirement.

see the ‘better,’ Nimrod MRA4, now replaced by the smaller and fiercely argued against ‘not as good’ P-8 Poseidon thats proved to be rather brilliant at the job, without the UOR sting.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
‘as we wish it to do’.... the bane of U.K. defence procurement, the Unique Operational Requirement.

see the ‘better,’ Nimrod MRA4, now replaced by the smaller and fiercely argued against ‘not as good’ P-8 Poseidon thats proved to be rather brilliant at the job, without the UOR sting.
P-8 didn't exist at the time: the RMPA contest was between updating Nimrod and two P-3 Orion offerings (from memory, one new-build and one remanufactured). We'd been intending to buy into the US LRAACA (Long Range Airborne ASW Capable Aircraft, which became the P-7 - based on a 757 airframe) but when that fell over (because big US procurements sometimes go expensively wrong too) we had to go UK-only.

The US then developed the P-8, using a 737 airframe with the UK RMPA mission suite; which was available at the point Nimrod MRA.4 found the problems a few folk had been warning of and after enough money was found down the back of the MoD sofa.
 
‘as we wish it to do’.... the bane of U.K. defence procurement, the Unique Operational Requirement.

see the ‘better,’ Nimrod MRA4, now replaced by the smaller and fiercely argued against ‘not as good’ P-8 Poseidon thats proved to be rather brilliant at the job, without the UOR sting.
Hate to break it to you, but the P8 wasn't the option when the (barking) decision to remanufacture 40 year old airframes was made. So most definitely not fiercely argued against.
 
P-8 didn't exist at the time: the RMPA contest was between updating Nimrod and two P-3 Orion offerings (from memory, one new-build and one remanufactured). We'd been intending to buy into the US LRAACA (Long Range Airborne ASW Capable Aircraft, which became the P-7 - based on a 757 airframe) but when that fell over (because big US procurements sometimes go expensively wrong too) we had to go UK-only.

The US then developed the P-8, using a 737 airframe with the UK RMPA mission suite; which was available at the point Nimrod MRA.4 found the problems a few folk had been warning of and after enough money was found down the back of the MoD sofa.
P-7 designation assigned to both 757 and the remanufacutered Upgraded P-8

cheers
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
P-8 didn't exist at the time: the RMPA contest was between updating Nimrod and two P-3 Orion offerings (from memory, one new-build and one remanufactured). We'd been intending to buy into the US LRAACA (Long Range Airborne ASW Capable Aircraft, which became the P-7 - based on a 757 airframe) but when that fell over (because big US procurements sometimes go expensively wrong too) we had to go UK-only.

The US then developed the P-8, using a 737 airframe with the UK RMPA mission suite; which was available at the point Nimrod MRA.4 found the problems a few folk had been warning of and after enough money was found down the back of the MoD sofa.

and after all the tears and drama, the US spec P-8 turned out to be a far better platform than the MRA4 was, or could ever be.

a lesson learned when the unique ‘British’ WAH-64 got binned in favour of the vastly more capable and cheaper US spec AH-64E

funny that, how often our UOR specials end up getting binned - and we end up buying US spec COTS after wasting Billions, and get a better capability for less.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
He got his dimensions and airframes mixed up...

cheers

it’s an easy mistake to make.
On paper, the Merlin doesn’t seem that big, but only because it’s got too small a rotor disk for the size of it’s huge airframe.

it’s big, really properly big

6E40ED3B-7B4A-43BE-9F1A-88680377A63B.jpeg
 
P-8 didn't exist at the time: the RMPA contest was between updating Nimrod and two P-3 Orion offerings (from memory, one new-build and one remanufactured). We'd been intending to buy into the US LRAACA (Long Range Airborne ASW Capable Aircraft, which became the P-7 - based on a 757 airframe) but when that fell over (because big US procurements sometimes go expensively wrong too) we had to go UK-only.

The US then developed the P-8, using a 737 airframe with the UK RMPA mission suite; which was available at the point Nimrod MRA.4 found the problems a few folk had been warning of and after enough money was found down the back of the MoD sofa.

The P-7 we were interested in was this one:

1610931177508.png


The 757-based offering didn't get to the stage of getting a 'P' designation and lost to the 'that looks like a P-3 with an extra blade on each prop' seen above.

The 757 variant

1610931288744.png

was, I think, second choice, ahead of a propfan powered 'P-9', which was based on the MD-91. This was, in essence, an unproven modification of an unproven modification of an airliner. Using an unproven powerplant. We'd probably have gone for it, so unpromising was the idea...

1610931532362.png
 
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it’s an easy mistake to make.
On paper, the Merlin doesn’t seem that big, but only because it’s got too small a rotor disk for the size of it’s huge airframe.

it’s big, really properly big

View attachment 540393
wihtout being petty, thought AtG has seen pics of Merlin which gives it away as large a/c compared to a Seahawk.

The USN SH-60B/F and MH-60 are lucky to sit two Sensor Operators (enlisted )in the back with that equipment As they only have one.

The old HH-60H combat rescue and SEAL support has normal cabin and likewise the Coast Guard MH-60T Jayhawk.

Anyhow ...dug up another set of my photos from decade ago at Farnborough 2010 of the ‚Airwolves‘ Romeo Hawk.

3247A279-A5EC-4684-BFF2-038963C8B509.jpeg
60FDC22D-57F6-4FA2-AE2F-87F4658E978A.jpeg
44FAC660-D5E1-4DCE-87EA-1ECBADBB3E96.jpeg


Cheers
 
Er... I’m sure AtG will correct me, but I rather think that he’s done more than ‘see a picture’ of a Merlin (and an SH-60, for that matter).

I’m not going to blow his persec, obviously, but I don’t think it a wild suggestion that he probably knows more about the detail of operating a Merlin (and SH-60) from a T23 than most of us do. We’re almost, but not exactly, into ‘and what the **** would you know about the Iranian embassy siege, eh, General Sir Michael Rose, eh?’

Just saying...
 
it’s an easy mistake to make.
On paper, the Merlin doesn’t seem that big, but only because it’s got too small a rotor disk for the size of it’s huge airframe.

it’s big, really properly big

View attachment 540393

When marking out an HLS in the field, the same size one will work for both Chinook and Merlin. The latter is huge and generates just as much downwash when operating under it hooking up loads. The good thing about the Merlin is that there is absolutely no possibility of accidentally walking into the rotor blades because they are so far off of the ground.
 
When marking out an HLS in the field, the same size one will work for both Chinook and Merlin. The latter is huge and generates just as much downwash when operating under it hooking up loads. The good thing about the Merlin is that there is absolutely no possibility of accidentally walking into the rotor blades because they are so far off of the ground.
Sultan Kosen will be pleased

ED150DAF-70CC-4C3C-A224-7FAAF7D1C326.jpeg
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
and after all the tears and drama, the US spec P-8 turned out to be a far better platform than the MRA4 was, or could ever be.

a lesson learned when the unique ‘British’ WAH-64 got binned in favour of the vastly more capable and cheaper US spec AH-64E

funny that, how often our UOR specials end up getting binned - and we end up buying US spec COTS after wasting Billions, and get a better capability for less.
The engines and DASS made the WAH-64 the best in the world at the time. It was a good buy and it took a good few years for everyone else, including the Americans, to catch up. But the -E was a correct, pragmatic choice.

You’re twisting facts.
 

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