CVF and Carrier Strike thread

[Cold_Collation]

I am from the part of the UK where helicopter orders or cancellations count as local news.

Do you find it hard to type with webbed hands?

 

[PhotEx]

Merlins are fine for reliability; we just didn't buy enough spares to suppprt them in 3rd line maintenance. That it turn just extends the timelines to get anything done.

Like most helicopters, they work best when they're flown pretty intensively.

You can make a Lada ’reliable’ if you keep a mountain of every conceivable spares to hand.

the claims they are ‘reliable’ are false. They are ‘reliable’ due to insane levels of fleet cannibalism to keep the ones on point turning and burning, leaving the user with none for any surge need. When the Falklands kicked off, the RN was able to roll large numbers of Sea Kings cooling their heels out of hangers and deploy them as they weren’t all being used as parts kits.

20 years of constant work has failed to get fleet availability above 50%.

When the main user refuses to buy any more, and the very buoyant international medium lift helicopter market refuses to buy them, it’s a Gods way of telling you it’s not a Hawk, it’s a Turkey.

 

[Cold_Collation]

CR1 was 'unreliable' until RO told Thatcher that it would only guarantee levels of availability if the MOD bought the levels of spares recommended and scrimped upon at the point of procurement.

Said levels of spares were procured and the 'unreliable' CR1 bettered its 'much better' American counterparts across the campaign.

I suspect - cue more frantic posting by some - that the truth sits somewhere in the middle.

The point remains that we're short of rotary-wing capacity and if the asset we have is fragile - for whatever reason - over-hammering it for a lack of capacity/airframe numbers isn't going to end well.

Either resource it, or complement it with something else.

 

[PhotEx]

I am from the part of the UK where helicopter orders or cancellations count as local news.

Ah good old Wastelands, who got caught red handed trying to charge MOD double the new price of an AH-64E to upgrade the Army’s WAH-1’s.

 

[shouldknowbetter]

Do you find it hard to type with webbed hands?

The six fingers on each hand makes up for the webbing.

 

[Archimedes]

CR1 was 'unreliable' until RO told Thatcher that it would only guarantee levels of availability if the MOD bought the levels of spares recommended and scrimped upon at the point of procurement.

Said levels of spares were procured and the 'unreliable' CR1 bettered its 'much better' American counterparts across the campaign.

I suspect - cue more frantic posting by some - that the truth sits somewhere in the middle.

The point remains that we're short of rotary-wing capacity and if the asset we have is fragile - for whatever reason - over-hammering it for a lack of capacity/airframe numbers isn't going to end well.

Either resource it, or complement it with something else.

A propos of nothing, I’d observe that there were several areas where things were drifting or rubbish until Thatcher took an interest herself - the most spectacular being her threat to go up to Leeds and run the Ripper inquiry herself if the local constabulary didn’t get its act together.

It’s almost as though people were scared of her and found spending money they’d scrimped upon, or allocating resources correctly to put things right was much the preferable option to having to explain themselves to her... (see that minor figure President R Reagan and his terror at having to explain why he’d invaded Grenada without her permission).

 

[PhotEx]

.

The point remains that we're short of rotary-wing capacity and if the asset we have is fragile - for whatever reason - over-hammering it for a lack of capacity/airframe numbers isn't going to end well.

Either resource it, or complement it with something else.

Yes, we are indeed desperately short of medium lift. See all the grey Junglies backfilling, another 20 cabs are needed.
But if 1SL raids his piggy bank, he’s acutely aware he will be ordered to buy more of the helicopter thats grievously let his service down, cheaper and more reliable foreign options will not be permitted to avoid upsetting some very vociferous, but now fully Italian owned West Country vested interests.

And so, the RN will grit its teeth and plod on, hoping the FVL programme gets a nip on so they get ordered something bright, shiney and new.

 

[Cold_Collation]

A propos of nothing, I’d observe that there were several areas where things were drifting or rubbish until Thatcher took an interest herself - the most spectacular being her threat to go up to Leeds and run the Ripper inquiry herself if the local constabulary didn’t get its act together.

It’s almost as though people were scared of her and found spending money they’d scrimped upon, or allocating resources correctly to put things right was much the preferable option to having to explain themselves to her... (see that minor figure President R Reagan and his terror at having to explain why he’d invaded Grenada without her permission).

A double-edged sword. I can think of at least one organisation where fear of telling the person at the top resulted in a 'Yes' culture and real problems.

A French-headquartered defence company with significant UK interests springs to mind.

 

[Not a Boffin]

Yes, we are indeed desperately short of medium lift. See all the grey Junglies backfilling, another 20 cabs are needed.

And so, the RN will grit its teeth and plod on, hoping the FVL programme gets a nip on so they get ordered something bright, shiney and new.

Arguably, with over 100 lift helicopters (70 or so in the forward fleet), the UK is not short of lift - particularly given the way FCF is evolving.

What it is short of are special mission helicopters, particularly those that can operate at range from the parent platform, stay there for a decent time, carry enough weapons to definitively conclude an engagement and support enough mission specialists to do the job properly.

That is a requirement that unmanned platforms won't fulfill any time soon. Nor are there multiple off the shelf platforms to do that.

 

[Yarra]

Arguably, with over 100 lift helicopters (70 or so in the forward fleet), the UK is not short of lift - particularly given the way FCF is evolving.

What it is short of are special mission helicopters, particularly those that can operate at range from the parent platform, stay there for a decent time, carry enough weapons to definitively conclude an engagement and support enough mission specialists to do the job properly.

That is a requirement that unmanned platforms won't fulfill any time soon. Nor are there multiple off the shelf platforms to do that.

Wot? ...like the ones that fly out of Mildenhall?

 

[Not a Boffin]

Wot? ...like the ones that fly out of Mildenhall?

No. What naval helicopters do that isn't "lift".

 

[PhotEx]

Arguably, with over 100 lift helicopters (70 or so in the forward fleet), the UK is not short of lift - particularly given the way FCF is evolving.

What it is short of are special mission helicopters, particularly those that can operate at range from the parent platform, stay there for a decent time, carry enough weapons to definitively conclude an engagement and support enough mission specialists to do the job properly.

That is a requirement that unmanned platforms won't fulfill any time soon. Nor are there multiple off the shelf platforms to do that.

16 extended range MH-47’s will be with us shortly

 

[Not a Boffin]

16 extended range MH-47’s will be with us shortly

None of which will do ASW or AEW/MASC. Special mission isn't just for special people.

 

[PhotEx]

None of which will do ASW or AEW/MASC. Special mission isn't just for special people.

alas, as I’ve noted, we‘re in a mexican stand off with naval helichopters.
Need more cabs, don’t want more Merlins, but the only politically acceptable answer is Merlin.

there is a way out, but it would need political will to face down Wastelands noisy political lobby.

buy of SH-60 Romeo as standard ASW/ASuW helo
(see the bargain pricing to be had if you buy US spec OTS with AH-64E)
All Merlins go to AEW/CHF along with all Wildcats to CHF.

 

[Not a Boffin]

Need more cabs, Photex doesn't want more Merlins, but the only answer that approaches the requirement is Merlin.

FoC

ETA :

buy of SH-60 Romeo as standard ASW/ASuW helo

If only the 60R was capable of meeting the requirement for ASW. Having a dipping sonar and being able to carry a torpedo is not necessarily meeting the requirement.

It's fair to suggest that the money has not been allocated to ASW across the west until very recently, which is why the US are trying to make do with a mod of LAMPS III and pretending it'll do the same as an S3/SH3 combo.

 

[jrwlynch]

FoC

You forgot how we'd be getting a big fleet of ESKV-22s for free, with all the spares and support we need, because reasons...

 

[Not a Boffin]

You forgot how we'd be getting a big fleet of ESKV-22s for free, with all the spares and support we need, because reasons...

Didn't forget it, just didn't bother with it as it isn't real or relevant.

 

[Lindermyer]

Is the answer - anything US Built because that will do the job regardless of specs far better than anything built by a European country be it ships, RW, FW, Armour, missiles, cannon, bombs,

 

[PhotEx]

FoC

“The Royal Navy’s Merlin Mark 2 and Mark 4/4A helicopters are currently planned to go out of service in 2029 and 2030 respectively.”

SH-60 or NH-90, Pick one.

 

[Yarra]

No. What naval helicopters do that isn't "lift".

Ah... I see.