CVF and Carrier Strike thread

[History_Man]

Yes, but we could definitely do with some more rotary-wing assets - which, in the FAA's case, probably means more Merlins because of keeping down the number of types in operation.

Remember, we've already had to buy some airframes off the Danes as (when it was still an operator) the RAF didn't have enough.

CROWSNEST isn't being generated out of new airframes, it's seeing them being pulled out of the existing fleet.

Some people on here might not like Merlin (one or two posters in particular... some of whom are the same person), and it is maintenance-hungry, but it's the best there is at the job it does.

In short, we need more Merlins.

Re. your final sentence, I disagree, it's reliability is shocking.

 

[RCT(V)]

Go compare the cost of an EH-101 an Osprey

There’s a reason the RN hasn’t bought a single one other than the launch order they had no option over.

And yes, Ospreys are very much on the to do list.

Introduction	1999[2]
Status	In service
Primary users	Royal Navy Royal Air Force (historical) Italian Navy Royal Danish Air Force
Produced	1990s-present
Unit cost	US$28M (civilian variant)[3]
Variants	AgustaWestland CH-149 Cormorant Lockheed Martin VH-71 Kestrel

AgustaWestland AW101 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Produced	1988–present
Number built	400 as of 2020[2]
Program cost	US$35.6 billion after planned procurement of 408 aircraft[3]
Unit cost	MV-22: US$72.1 million (flyaway cost for FY2015)[4] (equivalent to $77.4 million in 2019)[5]
Developed from	Bell XV-15

Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PhotEx]

There’s a difference between the unit price on Wikipedia and the cost of running a unique (to FAA) fleet of, say, six airframes compared to six units of a fleet of dozens.

But then this has all been explained to you many times before.

nope, the operating costs of Merlins started out and have stayed eye watering.
that’s why no one is buying them and the RN never bought any more.
Its all in HMG public record the eye watering cost of running Merlin and their stubbornly low availability.

and do keep up, We run small numbers of US spec aircraft and will get the non day to day maintenance done elsewhere - they’re called F-35’s - other than the markings, identical as near as matters to USMC F-35’s.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Re. your final sentence, I disagree, it's reliability is shocking.

Then what's the alternative?

 

[PhotEx]

View attachment 539528

Introduction	1999[2]
Status	In service
Primary users	Royal Navy Royal Air Force (historical) Italian Navy Royal Danish Air Force
Produced	1990s-present
Unit cost	US$28M (civilian variant)[3]
Variants	AgustaWestland CH-149 Cormorant Lockheed Martin VH-71 Kestrel

AgustaWestland AW101 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 539526

Produced	1988–present
Number built	400 as of 2020[2]
Program cost	US$35.6 billion after planned procurement of 408 aircraft[3]
Unit cost	MV-22: US$72.1 million (flyaway cost for FY2015)[4] (equivalent to $77.4 million in 2019)[5]
Developed from	Bell XV-15

Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We stopped buying Merlins because their unit cost was more than the Type 23 Frigates they were going on.

 

[Mattb]

nope, the operating costs of Merlins started out and have stayed eye watering.
that’s why no one is buying them and the RN never bought any more.
Its all in HMG public record the eye watering cost of running Merlin and their stubbornly low availability.

and do keep up, We run small numbers of US spec aircraft and will get the non day to day maintenance done elsewhere - they’re called F-35’s - other than the markings, identical as near as matters to USMC F-35’s.

UK target number of F-35s is in the high double figures at least (even if it does keep changing), so not comparable in the slightest.

Given that you like looking up things on the internet, would you like to tell us how many countries operate (a) AW-101 and (b) V-22?

 

[PhotEx]

Then what's the alternative?

Anything but a helicopter that after 20 years of tinkering, still won’t deliver more than 50% availability, and never will.

Everyones buying SH-60’s or NH-90’s and no ones buying EH-101’s for a reason.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Anything but a helicopter that after 20 years of tinkering, still won’t deliver more than 50% availability, and never will.

Everyones buying SH-60’s or NH-90’s and no ones buying EH-101’s for a reason.

Apart from the 13 countries across 16 fleets.

 

[History_Man]

Then what's the alternative?

SH-60R; even the Danes have opted for it over an ASW Merlin (the RAN already have it).

 

[Cold_Collation]

SH-60R; even the Danes have opted for it over an ASW Merlin (the RAN already have it).

Aye, fair.

But, Wildcat...

 

[History_Man]

Aye, fair.

But, Wildcat...

That can go too...

 

[Yokel]

We stopped buying Merlins because their unit cost was more than the Type 23 Frigates they were going on.

Rubbish - I am sure that I read that the price of a Type 23 circa 1990 was in the order of £200 million per ship, in the early 2000s the cost of an ASW Merlin, fully fitted with dipping sonar, radar, etc was $57 million per aircraft. Merlin has approx 50% more range and endurance than either MH-60 or NH-90, meaning a smaller number of aircraft can deliver the same level of coverage for a task group.

I suspect the availability would improve if the spares were provided.

Now - are you going to reply to my comments about the UK committing a carrier capability to NATO and this years STDE21 exercise?

 

[wafubustard]

@PhotEx. Can you give us a source about us buying the V22?
You have spouted on about it for so long you believe your own BS.

 

[PhotEx]

UK target number of F-35s is in the high double figures at least (even if it does keep changing), so not comparable in the slightest.

Given that you like looking up things on the internet, would you like to tell us how many countries operate (a) AW-101 and (b) V-22?

It really really is.

We can operate a small flight of Ospreys as a subset of a USMC Squadron. it’s not as if the two services don’t work very closely and talk to each other.

in your own time, how many Navy’s have bought the ASW of the Merlin in even distant history?
I’m save you the effort, Leonardo’s given up trying after decades of being snubbed and customers laughing at the price and its dismal performance record.

 

[PhotEx]

Rubbish - I am sure that I read that the price of a Type 23 circa 1990 was in the order of £200 million per ship, in the early 2000s the cost of an ASW Merlin, fully fitted with dipping sonar, radar, etc was $57 million per aircraft. Merlin has approx 50% more range and endurance than either MH-60 or NH-90, meaning a smaller number of aircraft can deliver the same level of coverage for a task group.

I suspect the availability would imptove if the spares were provided.

Hansard......

Type 23 Frigates​

5 Jul 2001 : Column: 246W

Mr. Quentin Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost was of each of the Royal Navy's type 23 frigates.

Mr. Ingram: The cost of HMS Norfolk, the first of the type 23 class frigates, was £135.449 million. The following 16 vessels have cost, or are estimated to cost where final payments are not yet due, between £60 million and £96 million depending on when the vessel was ordered and the scope of shipbuilder supplied equipment.

We were paying £100 million a pop for a Merlin and people said WTF! Don’t order none more.


we can buy all the spares in the universe, it won’t ever change the fact it’s over complex, its a maintenance nightmare, it’s fragile, and it has an inherently weak gearbox that can’t be fixed.

Get over it, Merlin is a pile of w@nk no one wants - and it’s main user would dump tomorrow if it could.

​

 

[Yokel]

Hansard......

Type 23 Frigates​

5 Jul 2001 : Column: 246W

Mr. Quentin Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost was of each of the Royal Navy's type 23 frigates.

Mr. Ingram: The cost of HMS Norfolk, the first of the type 23 class frigates, was £135.449 million. The following 16 vessels have cost, or are estimated to cost where final payments are not yet due, between £60 million and £96 million depending on when the vessel was ordered and the scope of shipbuilder supplied equipment.

We were paying £100 million a pop for a Merlin and people said WTF! Don’t order none more.


we can buy all the spares in the universe, it won’t ever change the fact it’s over complex, its a maintenance nightmare, it’s fragile, and it has an inherently weak gearbox that can’t be fixed.

Get over it, Merlin is a pile of w@nk no one wants - and it’s main user would dump tomorrow if it could.

​

Main user - when I spoke to someone from 824 NAS a few years back they seemed happy with it. As did the old and bold PWO(U) who I asked about ASW, and he started drawing a diagram of a task group with a T23 (with 2087) working with Merlins flying from the carrier and being on station 24/7 - taking advantage of it having a longer range than the old Sea King...

I wonder if @alfred_the_great (who understands a thing or two about ASW) thinks it is capable or not?

As to my other point, would you agree, or disagree, that HM Government has committed to commit a carrier to NATO, as announced by Ministers), and that NATO considers that transatlantic reinforcements would need to be protected during any crisis in the NATO theatre?

 

[History_Man]

Rubbish - I am sure that I read that the price of a Type 23 circa 1990 was in the order of £200 million per ship, in the early 2000s the cost of an ASW Merlin, fully fitted with dipping sonar, radar, etc was $57 million per aircraft. Merlin has approx 50% more range and endurance than either MH-60 or NH-90, meaning a smaller number of aircraft can deliver the same level of coverage for a task group.

I suspect the availability would improve if the spares were provided.

Now - are you going to reply to my comments about the UK committing a carrier capability to NATO and this years STDE21 exercise?

If only it were that simple; it is an inherently complicated aircraft, far more so than the Chinook. The RAF were not sorry to see the back of their Merlins and neither were the Army.

 

[PhotEx]

Merlin has approx 50% more range and endurance than either MH-60 or NH-90, meaning a smaller number of aircraft can deliver the same level of coverage for a task group.

Let me help you with a fundamental error in your working out.

You are comparing a helicopter with ≤50% availability with a helicopter with ≥90% availability.

 

[PhotEx]

If only it were that simple; it is an inherently complicated aircraft, far more so than the Chinook. The RAF were not sorry to see the back of their Merlins and neither were the Army.

The Navy is 20 heavy helicopters short of where it needs to be, yet merrily took a Sawzall to 8 Merlins for spares parts.

 

[Yokel]

Let me help you with a fundamental error in your working out.

You are comparing a helicopter with ≤50% availability with a helicopter with ≥90% availability.

Is that availability figure for the whole fleet, or for a deployed flight or a squadron aboard the carrier?

How did they get nine Merlins aboard HMS illustrious (plus another one aboard Westminster) - Exercise Deep Blue in 2014 - high tempo ASW? Hopefully @jrwlynch will jump in with a brain bending analysis of sortie length, range, coverage, etc.

Without wishing to repeat myself, has the UK committed to make a carrier available for NATO operations?