CTR Poll

So, what do you do ?

  • Silent but deadly, all you want is a benny hat and a ka-bar between your teeth

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • By all means go McNab near the target, but at least have more than a mag on you on the way down

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Whats wrong with you ? Take your webbing off ? Don't you jump check your section before leavin

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
Looking for an opinion here.

Went on an ex with the TA the other day and we had to do a CTR, no probs, been a while since I left the regs but thought I should be able to remember most of it. The plan was quite simple, patrol out in section strength, more to FRV, drop off a protection party and send out a CTR team to do the work. no dramas. However when it came to briefing the lads and prep to move it was mentioned to me that for a CTR you shouldn't wear webbing or helmet for noise reduction. Now I haven't an issue with that moving from the FRV to the CTR, but I wanted my lads fully kitted on the patrol down as it was about 4-5 km from the harbour area and anything could happen, but another section commander stated that you shouldn't have any kit but your rifle from the off what happened next was a bit of a bitchfest about how " i ave always done it this way" etc.

After a lot of whinging we all left with our kit but I had a nagging thought about this event, so who's right ?

Am I seriously wrong or out of touch, or was the other guy just a cowboy wanting to do a bit of sneaky sammy sas stuff with woolly hats on ?
 
#2
ALways full kit until told to do otherwise. Pardon me but your section, Your rules!!!

Anyway. I'm gonna go and put in a CTR on my bed.
 
#3
Same boat as Bad_Crow on this one, I've yet to find a wooly hat with the same ballistic qualities as a Mk6 skid lid, and 4- 5 km is a long withdrawl with only one mag. All the kit for me, ta.
 
#4
Every move, whether by road or foot, should be treated as a fighting patrol regardless of the main tasks or objectives.

You could get bumped at any stage and have to fight your way out (that way out may not be the way you would have preferred)

It is quite short sighted to set the tone of the entire patrol based upon one single task (even if it is your mission, or key objective)

Your actions on task/target will reflect the nature of the task, but you should always prepare for the worst.

TBH though CTR's in my experience of current Ops (i.e. over the last 15 years) have tended to be carried out by some more specialist units (others experience's may differ) and any task conducted by a rifle platoon/section could realistically have been conducted in full fighting order.

Be that as it may, a CTR is still a legitimate operation like all others and should be practiced on exercise, but should also reflect practical soldiering.

so welly head im with you,
 
#5
In fact a wee funny, based on this subject which should really be in the em Mong thread,

I was Bn Trg Offr a good few years ago, and had jacked up quite an intense cambrian patrol training prog.

the team headed off to wales blah blah.

during the exercise/assesment phase of training, the team commander headed out on the CTR phase from HIS hasty harbour.

The objective was approx 5km away so he decided to turn the hasty harbour into the FRV (dont ask me why, or where he got it from)

He left two blokes protecting the bergans, webbing etc.
(my mong in all of this was that the appointed DS for the task was picking him up on objective rather than shadowing him, trust and all that....silly me)

He then set up another FRV (again dont ask me)
leaving two blokes about 1 km from target with ALL the rifles (Doh)
And headed to the CTR.

The clag came in thick,
And lo and behold the mong got lost,

four blokes were stranded as he forgot to get a grid for his FRV's.

we quickly found the two from his initial FRV because he had only moved about three meters from the edge of a busy car park, but we had to spend the next 24hrs searching for his Second Final RV which had 6 rifles stashed in it.

MMMOOONGGG!!!

a few months later this young rupert announced in the mess that he was applying for selection!!!!
 

BBear

LE
Kit Reviewer
#6
I've always been taught leave harbour with belt-kit/daysacks, but helmet on webbing. Apparently so we have our sneaky beaky heads on. CTR pair + close cover group have smocks mit mags + rifle. Kit in frv as close as possible.

I thank you!
 
#7
We are taught to go into the CTR with webbing on, and weapon. Being doing patrols training for two years and have heard about leaving the FRV in just your boxers but it always seemed a bit silly to me.

If I'm 50m from the enermy I want my rifle and ammo with me just in case.
 
#8
bobath said:
We are taught to go into the CTR with webbing on, and weapon. Being doing patrols training for two years and have heard about leaving the FRV in just your boxers but it always seemed a bit silly to me.

If I'm 50m from the enermy I want my rifle and ammo with me just in case.
Couldn't have put it better myself. I too have history where CTR's are concerned. If there is anything i have learned its

A. Keep your kit with you.
B. Tie your laces
C. When the shooting starts use that as your combat indicator to exit stage left and not right into secondry position.
 
#9
Concur. The move to the FRV should be treated as a Fighting/Standing Patrol. Once in the FRV then dump stuff that can catch on bushes/rattle/clink/brush against leaves.

I do remember a really bad "Patrolling" video that had a Section in headovers on heads, rocket pod daysack and that's it. The video was truly awful, with the patrol hitting mines and clearing their way out by banging on the ground with their rocket pods!!! Great stuff from the era of big mustaches!
 
#10
CTR's.

It all depends on the situation.

Fighting patrol (Helmets and CBA) on to the FRV, then dependant on the CTR task ie CTR to a distance where you can see what buildings are occupied and by who and doing what, or CTR into the location and see what underwear Johnny is wearing.

Dependant on that is if you take webbing (if not, then mags in pockets 1 per to stop noise) and if issued with 9mm then you may think about leaving the rifle behind.

Pure stupidity and suffering from reading too many McNab books to do it any other way.

Saying that, why do you as an infanteer need to get in THAT close, if the info was required that meant going in that close they would give it to a unit trained to do it that close.

If I can get away with doing a CTR with a spyglass from 500mts then I will, or PNG's from 100mts then I will.

Getting in closer smakes of big timing it and wanna be sasssss. But when you are captured and being told you have poor **** hygene by the interigator it suddenly doesnt look so big and cleaver to have tried to do it from 10 feet!
 
#11
You never know what's going to happen on a patrol. You could get bumped, your harbour could get compromised complete with all your kit in it or simply the situation could change in principle, so much that your task is revised and your stay extended. Me no likee not having spare ammo, gary goretex and brew kit to hand.
 
#12
There are many ways to conduct Target recce, the question im wondering is surely a CTR to be conducted properly would require 24-48 hrs, very few comds would launch an operation with so little information on the Enemy, during this time the sititutaion is bound to change, the patrol will have to maintain contact with the target and produce live time info.
How can this be achieved with no equipment???
 
Z

Zarathustra

Guest
#13
I've always done them with all your kit, but leave your daysacks with the FRV group.

But it's down to how the section commander wants to play it.

A couple of our sections did a CTR in Afghan earlier in the year and i believe they went out tooled up to the max with a Plt of WMIKs in support and CAS/AH on call and they were still bricking it.

It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it
 
#15
Guys thanks for all the comments and votes

Interestingly its pretty much split 50/50 on options 2 and 3, which I thought it would be, me ? I voted all the gear, if your prep is right you should be silent with webbing on


A little bit more back story on this, I am a fairly recent member of the unit after a long time in the regs and a long time out, so I admit to a certain level of skill fade and being a tad out of date. This was the first non tech ex that I did with the guys and was, ahem, a little taken back by this claim of patrlling out feck all. This really came from one individual whose experience I have serious doubts on, expecially after hearing thier post CTR ground brief. Due to my wish not to rock the boat too much being the "new" boy I held my tongue and not called them out on orders.

I am still learning the politics of TA soldiering
 
#16
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
If I can get away with doing a CTR with a spyglass from 500mts then I will, or PNG's from 100mts then I will.
The problems come when Capt Hardly-Worthit wants his Coy NATO T behind the bund-line 25meters from the En position. You can't secure the ground and lay out your T with a Javlin site from 2 K's way. We tried.

Wellyhead, nobody understands the politics of TA soldiering, so don't even try.
 
#17
being honest people who dump kit before the start of the patrol are lazy or lack the fitness required for the task, leaving day sacks with FRV totally correct you dont need to eat, change socks or get the rustling goretex on in a CTR, however the CTR kit must be secured in the smock or webbing, as for helmet to not take it is just stupid, this Instructor who had always done it that way was just given a slovenly habit in the first place, would he seriously not go out with a helmet in theatre? I can assure you the dark-siders around Basra have thanked the mk6A a good few times now.
 
#18
Many years ago, I was with a unit of yeomanry on an exercise who captured a hooligan FRV group, webbing, bergans and all, while they were out doing a CTR on a position we'd vacated a couple of hours before. The bad guys were left with rifle and one magazine in country that was full of people looking for them.

I suppose the moral of the story is, don't assume that the opposition aren't also conducting offensive operations.
 
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