Crimes that arent related to drugs

ugly

LE
Moderator
#1
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/how-to-combat-forced-prostitustion.285089/
The above thread brought this to mind, most if not all of the females in prison are as a result of crimes that involve drugs, laundering of drug money or using drugs to keep prostitutes compliant.
Even some if not most of the murder/attempted murder cases ending up with a female prisoner seem to be related in some way to illegal drugs.
Labour tried to downgrade cannabis to class C, now those of us who have CDT and a zero policy at work may feel aggrieved but frankly the rules around alcohol are similar in those work places.
Perhaps legalising the sale to generate revenue allowing better treatment could be an option. Those of us in a CDT world would miss out but those who toke and drive can be nicked now so frankly it would allow a taxing of a huge sub culture and possibly restrict access to the vulnerable?
I'm not sure any war on drugs will ever be won and having seen the impact of the failure to control drugs I'm sceptical of my own plans anyway!
Any ideas about a way ahead?
 
#2
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/how-to-combat-forced-prostitustion.285089/
The above thread brought this to mind, most if not all of the females in prison are as a result of crimes that involve drugs, laundering of drug money or using drugs to keep prostitutes compliant.
Even some if not most of the murder/attempted murder cases ending up with a female prisoner seem to be related in some way to illegal drugs.
Labour tried to downgrade cannabis to class C, now those of us who have CDT and a zero policy at work may feel aggrieved but frankly the rules around alcohol are similar in those work places.
Perhaps legalising the sale to generate revenue allowing better treatment could be an option. Those of us in a CDT world would miss out but those who toke and drive can be nicked now so frankly it would allow a taxing of a huge sub culture and possibly restrict access to the vulnerable?
I'm not sure any war on drugs will ever be won and having seen the impact of the failure to control drugs I'm sceptical of my own plans anyway!
Any ideas about a way ahead?



My own personal view is that legalising drugs to any degree would open a Pandora's box of negative consequences, some obvious, many unforeseen. I'm absolutely sure myself that there'd be no net benefit to society.

I wonder how much of the "losing war on drugs" is simply down to the sharp decline in policing that is also apparently "losing the war" on street stabbings, theft, burglary and many other types of crime?

Maybe the deterioration in all form of social discipline and social consensus mean that there can no longer be be any "solution" or reversion to a low crime environment?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#3
My own personal view is that legalising drugs to any degree would open a Pandora's box of negative consequences, some obvious, many unforeseen. I'm absolutely sure myself that there'd be no net benefit to society.
Frankly I agree but what to do? I'm not sure even if we could throw money at the police in the manner of the NHS that crime figures would go down, my view is that they would go up as more folk would be able to report a crime instead of dialing the useless 101 and giving up after the 11th option.
 
#4
h1.png
 
#5
My neighbour is a recently retired policeman, he reckoned that 75% of the "proper" crimes that he dealt with in the past 5 years were down to drugs e.g. burglary in towns was usually some junkie trying to get enough money for a fix, ditto muggings & theft from cars plus turf war shootings, stabbings and beating.

A lot of other stuff e.g. "domestics" and street fights were down to alcohol and the rest just general lowlives or else career criminals (nicking farm and construction gear, ATM smash & grab etc).

His view of de-criminalising cannabis (and other drugs) was that it would save the pushers from being nicked but would lead to a surge in theft & muggings as a new generation of addicts tried to find money for their next fix. He is particularly unhappy about spice and derivitives which take up a lot of police time for bugger all return.

Classic comment
Q: "How can you improve a spice addict's life?"
A: "Put him in jail where he can get more of the stuff cheaper"
 
#6
Awaiting incoming to tell me that "exceptionally pure heroin" is not at all addicive and doesn't rot your brain.
 
#7
Awaiting incoming to tell me that "exceptionally pure heroin" is not at all addicive and doesn't rot your brain.


... and that the dwindling band of net productive taxpayers will be glad to pick up the slack and fund the welfare for millions of state-sponsored smackheads ....
 
#8
i'm slightly suprised you would be leaning to legalisation Ugly

Its safe to say that the illegal drugs business damages society in huge, many and varied ways. Both immediate, getting mugged, having homeless beggars on the street, taking up police time and the ******* dying,
Medium term, taking up NHS resources and inefficient social services funding
Long term, producing the next generation of broken fucktards and many other unseen costs on society

you will never stop people taking drugs, you can however reduce the drag drug users have on society.

If you put it purely in fiscal terms its an absolute no brainer. Unfortunately "Society" isn't ready to accept damage limitation as it absolutely doesn't fit the political agenda, previously and certainly currently when every aspect of society has been effected by austerity. Health, education, emergency services, health services etc

in fact austerity has just aided the growing of the socio-economic sub culture of drug users and general wasters in the UK.

Example. Hep C life time management for a single IV drug user runs into 10s of thousands of pounds a year. Stop even a small amount of hep C amongst IV drug users would save the NHS millions a year.

Low level crime (The sort we normal people use as a gauge to perceive how much of a shit hole society has become) could be massively reduced if drug users didn't have to find 200 quid a day for smack and crack. That 200 quid a day when taken out of society is multiplied, your bike or TV or car stereo gets sold for peanuts. That 200 quid grows to a more realistic 1000 quid a day in real terms

Give them a clean, medical standard drug in copious amounts using clean equipment. heroine costs nothing in real terms
If they die taking it they die they are off the books. if not their chaotic little crime lives start costing society less

you could bang on for ages with a break down of examples of real costs versus a different approach

Key thing is criminalising people. once you label someone with a criminal record and they repeatedly get engaged by the legal system you can virtually right them and their generational offspring off as productive citizens
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#9
... and that the dwindling band of net productive taxpayers will be glad to pick up the slack and fund the welfare for millions of state-sponsored smackheads ....
that is what happens now however licensed retailers would be turning revenue over, there may need to be a better clinical control over the really dangerous stuff but I suspect in the end illegal drugs would flourish. Some folk would not want to be known as users by the Govt and some may be banned by law even?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#10
i'm slightly suprised you would be leaning to legalisation Ugly
I'm not, I just sat back and looked at the prison population and wondered what if?
Frankly if we dont discuss these options then we will never have the chance to think through the consequences. Its the debate I'm interested in.
If prisoners can get drugs easily enough then folk outside must be swimming in them.

I do think however that those types of people who would be addicted would be easier to identify and place in an area where they can do less harm to society? Its all abit big brother.
 
#11
Classic comment
Q: "How can you improve a spice addict's life?"
A: "Put him in jail where he can get more of the stuff cheaper"
Maybe not for much longer
Blitz on drugs in prison underway
Although I'm not sure the headline on the web page, actually matches the thrust of the initiative in that rehab and support is what will ultimately make the difference in the long run
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#12
Give them a clean, medical standard drug in copious amounts using clean equipment. heroine costs nothing in real terms
If they die taking it they die they are off the books. if not their chaotic little crime lives start costing society less
Seems like a plan!
 
#13
My neighbour is a recently retired policeman, he reckoned that 75% of the "proper" crimes that he dealt with in the past 5 years were down to drugs e.g. burglary in towns was usually some junkie trying to get enough money for a fix, ditto muggings & theft from cars plus turf war shootings, stabbings and beating.

A lot of other stuff e.g. "domestics" and street fights were down to alcohol and the rest just general lowlives or else career criminals (nicking farm and construction gear, ATM smash & grab etc).

His view of de-criminalising cannabis (and other drugs) was that it would save the pushers from being nicked but would lead to a surge in theft & muggings as a new generation of addicts tried to find money for their next fix. He is particularly unhappy about spice and derivitives which take up a lot of police time for bugger all return.

Classic comment
Q: "How can you improve a spice addict's life?"
A: "Put him in jail where he can get more of the stuff cheaper
"
That would seem to be the polar opposite of reality. Drugs in Prisons have an astronomical mark up and are very profitable
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#14
Maybe not for much longer
Blitz on drugs in prison underway
Although I'm not sure the headline on the web page, actually matches the thrust of the initiative in that rehab and support is what will ultimately make the difference in the long run
Its a war of escalation, accept that they are going to be addicts in prison and treat them; 1 total isolation and cold turkey, kill or cure method.
2 give them a limited amount of drugs and keep them under a chemical cosh.
3 turn a total blind eye to use in prison
4 allow those that dont use to attain certain priveleges and monitor through CDT.
Either way some folk will re offend on leaving prison, its something that is inevitable as we dont actually prepare them for life outside away from crime. We do though punish them if they fail to pass the stay away from crime test. This though isnt actually enough of a deterrent!
 
#15
that is what happens now however licensed retailers would be turning revenue over, there may need to be a better clinical control over the really dangerous stuff but I suspect in the end illegal drugs would flourish. Some folk would not want to be known as users by the Govt and some may be banned by law even?

Just one of the issues with legalisation would be: how does the government go about choosing a range of drugs that are safe to sell? E.g.

- What about a duty of care to people not to give them something that might, for example, trigger psychosis?
- Will NICE or whoever write the guidelines?
- What will be the ethical boundaries?
- What happens if the "approved" drugs turn out to be too mild for the consumers' tastes?
- Who has liability if and when a consumer of legal drugs has a seriously negative outcome?
- etc

I can't see even a liberal government handing out free Spice - or worse - 'cos thats what the demand happens to be. I certainly can't see organised crime meekly handing over their customer base, and I expect they'd be agile enough to come up with new product lines that quickly overmatch legal products.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#16
I can't see even a liberal government handing out free Spice - or worse - 'cos thats what the demand happens to be. I certainly can't see organised crime meekly handing over their customer base, and I expect they'd be agile enough to come up with new product lines that quickly overmatch legal products.
I think spice is a success because of the ease of taking it. Psychosis causing drugs, well we have NICE as you said but this is only because of problems with medicines in the past. I'm no liberal, we either lock them all up, carry on slowly sinking into an abyss or pretend nothing is happening and that Darwin will sort out those stupid enough to be druggies.
 
#17
Its a war of escalation, accept that they are going to be addicts in prison and treat them; 1 total isolation and cold turkey, kill or cure method.
2 give them a limited amount of drugs and keep them under a chemical cosh.
3 turn a total blind eye to use in prison
4 allow those that dont use to attain certain priveleges and monitor through CDT.
Either way some folk will re offend on leaving prison, its something that is inevitable as we dont actually prepare them for life outside away from crime. We do though punish them if they fail to pass the stay away from crime test. This though isnt actually enough of a deterrent!

Previous eras of our society kept the problem under control with an ordered society, a severe judicial system and the harsh-but-humane containment of the workhouse (essentially cold turkey in a safe environment for the chronic alcoholics of that time).

These days we are in unknown territory, having removed all of those tools, and having replaced them with a liberal welfare system that simply indulges the percentage of people who cannot or will not control themselves.
 
#18
I live in Canada where as most people know, marijuana is set to be legalized shortly as soon as the distribution scheme and taxation system are in place. My rural area is plagued by low level crime ie; non violent mainly involving theft split pretty evenly between typical criminal lowlife dregs and drug users mainly being meth heads. Generally it seems the drug crowd commit the lower value crimes such as stealing motorcycle covers, items out of gardens and generally easier to pick up and run with objects , basically stuff a child would steal. The higher value thefts such as atv’s, trucks, farm machinery etc are carried out by the group that has their wits about them, not the ones looking to get cash quick to buy some drugs. The police have no desire to waste their time hunting down a stolen pedal bike or granny’s garden gnome collection as they have better ways to use their time, so junkies stay under the radar. I highly doubt as some drugs become legal to use here, that lower levels of crimes will fall away.
 
Last edited:
#19
Awaiting incoming to tell me that "exceptionally pure heroin" is not at all addicive and doesn't rot your brain.
Clinical grade Heroin, Diamorphine is obviously addictive. i don't believe it rots your brain but it has a multitude of effects on various organs.

But it costs considerably less than a bag of smack. the user is injecting a known quantity/quality used with clean needles mean less likely hood of infectious disease transfer and local infections. and the user doesn't have to beg steal or sell their body for the hit. An overall win from societies point of view financially and socially

you could pooh hoo it and say user will continue to expose themselves to other drugs and need more money for them. I say just give them what they need, if only a small amount of users take it up along with addiction treatment and become productive members of society the balance still swings in the right direction. If they OD they OD (But what price an OD...Police, ambulance, A+E, ward bed etc)
 
Last edited:
#20
Previous eras of our society kept the problem under control with an ordered society, a severe judicial system and the harsh-but-humane containment of the workhouse (essentially cold turkey in a safe environment for the chronic alcoholics of that time).

These days we are in unknown territory, having removed all of those tools, and having replaced them with a liberal welfare system that simply indulges the percentage of people who cannot or will not control themselves.
You might want to revisit your unloved copy of "The ragged trousered Philanthropists":mrgreen:

You answer your own question really. Looking backwards to the era of workhouses isn't a solution, certainly with a rosey nostalgia which paints you as a bit of a dinosaur (thats being polite)

Constantly developing modern society needs new, advanced, progressive, some might say brave or ground breaking approaches to modern problems.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads


Latest Threads

Top