Creationism, A question according to King James account

#1
Since there is another thread discussing religion that has sort of morphed into a discussion of creation, I thought of a question that I've asked several times and was curious on others takes on it.

I asked this question of a Roman Catholic priest, in a very genuinely curious manner as to what his take on it was, and his reply was "A complete and utter fabrication, a story and nothing more".

So, I'll be paraphrasing from King James version.


The first two humans on the planet were Adam and Eve. From them, 3 sons were born. Cain and Abel, and later Seth.

Anyway, Cain kills Abel and for which, is "sent away, where he married".

Um, correct my math but if Adam and Eve were the first two, then Cain and Abel, the first 4, then subtract Abel and Add Seth, still 3 Men, 1 Woman.

Who did Cain marry? Where did she come from? What city outside of eden are they suggesting existed?

Anyhow, I would like to know your thoughts on this.
 
#2
Load of old tosh. Evoloutionism is the way to go. Bit of a poor post that, so I'll expand.

In religion, they are never striving to improve and expand their theories. In science, the theory is rarely the same for a few weeks. New bits are continually being added on to improve it, make it easier to comprehend etc etc
 
#3
Haven't got a bible to hand (that me condemned to purgatory...), but I seem to recall that, after Seth, Adam & Eve went on to have dozens of other offspring, if not hundreds. I guess that a bit of incest was considered o.k. for the first few generations, and after that they were onto second- and third- cousins and so forth.
 
#4
How about the story of Lilith? the supposed first wife of Adam.

God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that He used filth and sediment instead of pure dust. From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'.

Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him.
lilith myth

so the first man was violent, and the first woman was a feminist.
 
#5
And where were the dinosaurs in the Bible? You would have thought they might have got a mention?
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
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#6
Is it possible that there were other bipedal life forms with DNA similar enough that interbreeding was possible? Could Adam and Eve be the first of a lineage, but not the first beings on the planet? As to how they were created and by whom i.e. how it came to pass...big questions again...
 
#7
theoriginalphantom said:
How about the story of Lilith? the supposed first wife of Adam.

God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that He used filth and sediment instead of pure dust. From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'.

Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him.
lilith myth

so the first man was violent, and the first woman was a feminist.
I read a couple takes on lilith. One was that she was an ethereal demoness created by satan to temp Adam to his side. Interesting stuff.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#8
As an Aside, do you guys know the concepts and correspondences of Adam Kadmon (Keterim), Tree of Life, IHVH/Jahweh, Macrocosm/Microcosm etc.? Kinda interesting if you don't?
 
#9
creationism is just trying to prove that the bible is fact not fiction, if you read it like any other book looking for the threads of the on going story it is a quite violent and pacy novel, it's got everything from the first page when the world was created thro family life,sex, incest,jealousy,rage,war conquest,mysterious stories and even the very first bloggers, mathew, mark, luke and john, letters, romans and a myth that is still to this day celebrated as if it really did happen, grippin stuff!!! step aside Hammond Innes,Stephen King and Co!
 
#10
Nehustan said:
As an Aside, do you guys know the concepts and correspondences of Adam Kadmon (Keterim), Tree of Life, IHVH/Jahweh, Macrocosm/Microcosm etc.? Kinda interesting if you don't?
I'm familiar with the Jahweh concepts but not the others you mention.


Also, along the same lines. There is a fictional fantasy type series from author piers anthony called Incarnations of immortality where he took certain religious and mythos figures and proposed them as jobs that a human would perform. In the books, he explores what their job would be, how do they get it, how do they lose it, who is their boss. There is a lot of fantasy rolled in, and some books in the series were a little too out there for me, ie: rolling around in a giant flying invisible fish, and that sort of thing but others were extremely interesting to me.

The first in the series, On a pale horse, was about the grim reaper being a job held by a human. I don't want to spoil it for those that want to pick it up but definitely worth the read imho.

For love of evil was by far the most interesting of the series.
 
#11
Let me recommend 2 books called "A Test Of Time" and "The Lost Testament" by David M. Rohl.They give an interesting take on the Bible
and it`s chronology.
 
#12
One of the best explanations I ever heard was from my mother .
FirstlyThe Bible is a way of explaining the inexplicable to ignorant people and Secondly it is a code of conduct to enable people to live in harmony.
 
#13
craftsmanx said:
One of the best explanations I ever heard was from my mother .
FirstlyThe Bible is a way of explaining the inexplicable to ignorant people and Secondly it is a code of conduct to enable people to live in harmony.
say what!! it's not real it was elevated to the level of how life should be lived as a way of controlling the masses by the roman church and so on through history, the victorians were the most corrupt people in history,supreme hypocrits preaching to the masses to live life according to the good book!!! whilst drinking whoring and in-breeding in the upper classes!! don't forget the church is one of the richest organisations in this country.
Religion is the biggest cause of conflict through the ages, the bible is the koran is the torah, ect.....
 
#14
TheHatsRevenge said:
craftsmanx said:
One of the best explanations I ever heard was from my mother .
FirstlyThe Bible is a way of explaining the inexplicable to ignorant people and Secondly it is a code of conduct to enable people to live in harmony.
say what!! it's not real it was elevated to the level of how life should be lived as a way of controlling the masses by the roman church and so on through history, the victorians were the most corrupt people in history,supreme hypocrits preaching to the masses to live life according to the good book!!! whilst drinking whoring and in-breeding in the upper classes!! don't forget the church is one of the richest organisations in this country.
Religion is the biggest cause of conflict through the ages, the bible is the koran is the torah, ect.....
Ahh, the good old days.

Seriously however, the major concern I have about creationism is that people who believe the Bible word for word tend to only selectively believe the bits that they like.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#15
ghost_us said:
Nehustan said:
As an Aside, do you guys know the concepts and correspondences of Adam Kadmon (Keterim), Tree of Life, IHVH/Jahweh, Macrocosm/Microcosm etc.? Kinda interesting if you don't?
I'm familiar with the Jahweh concepts but not the others you mention.


Also, along the same lines. There is a fictional fantasy type series from author piers anthony called Incarnations of immortality where he took certain religious and mythos figures and proposed them as jobs that a human would perform. In the books, he explores what their job would be, how do they get it, how do they lose it, who is their boss. There is a lot of fantasy rolled in, and some books in the series were a little too out there for me, ie: rolling around in a giant flying invisible fish, and that sort of thing but others were extremely interesting to me.

The first in the series, On a pale horse, was about the grim reaper being a job held by a human. I don't want to spoil it for those that want to pick it up but definitely worth the read imho.

For love of evil was by far the most interesting of the series.
Ok, this is a bit of a mission to get this into a succint post, but hopefully with google images it will make it a bit easier...

Tetragrammaton (meaning four lettered name/word) is used to describe God after Moses' experience, and is usually defined as IHVH/Jah'weh/Jehovah. The fact that when the voice spoke to Moses it said 'Eheieh Asher Eheieh' (I am what I am) and instructed Moses to tell the bani Israel to call him 'Eheieh' (I am) raises questions as to the origin of tetragrammaton, but not something we need to cover immediately. It was, I believe, after this point in the Torah that God is known as Jahweh.

Adam Kadmon, in simple terms means 'The first man', but he is symbolically represented by an image called 'Keterim' which places the tetragrammaton upon the 'tree' of life to symbolise Adam, let me find some images....

[align=center]k...first tetragrammaton...[/align]

[align=center]
[/align]

[align=center]then the tree of life...[/align]

[align=center]
[/align]

[align=center](the snake is Nehustan by the way ;) )[/align]

[align=center]then Adam Kadmon...[/align]

[align=center]
[/align]

[align=center]...and finally the Keterim...[/align]

[align=center]
[/align]

[align=center]This explains the idea of Macrocosm/Microcosm 'made in the image' part of the bible with Adam as the word manifest in flesh...which would be later applied to the second Adam, Jesus.[/align]

(edited as a result of image changes)
 
#16
craftsmanx said:
One of the best explanations I ever heard was from my mother .
FirstlyThe Bible is a way of explaining the inexplicable to ignorant people and Secondly it is a code of conduct to enable people to live in harmony.
To those who would explain the inexplicable to we "ignorant people":

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your statement, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b)I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c)I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d)Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians, can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e)I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f)A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 1:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree, can you please settle this?
g)Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h)Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i)I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j)My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread, (cotton/polyester blend) He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.4:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

F
 
#17
interventism, is another option , we could be genetically modified apes using alien dna :D

ok i know is shci@te, but Zecharia Sitchin's swears by it :D
 
#18
Nehustan..............

Very well described. You practice Kabbala, or a more Arcane Tradition? I have studied evolutionism (Darwinism) and theology (both only to a point) and understand many of the posts on here. Explanations are (in my opinion) too often sought when (again in my opinion) they are not ours to have 'by right'. A contradiction should we believe in a Creator/created scenario i agree.....

At the end of the day, those who are in doubt, those who dispel and those who believe.....whatever catergory you fall into; you will either know or not when the time comes. Too many people worrying about it in this life. If it turns out this is the only one we have, well.....shame to waste it wondering.

Faith; you've either got it or you havent.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#19
theslayerofmen said:
Nehustan..............

Very well described. You practice Kabbala, or a more Arcane Tradition? I have studied evolutionism (Darwinism) and theology (both only to a point) and understand many of the posts on here. Explanations are (in my opinion) too often sought when (again in my opinion) they are not ours to have 'by right'. A contradiction should we believe in a Creator/created scenario i agree.....

At the end of the day, those who are in doubt, those who dispel and those who believe.....whatever catergory you fall into; you will either know or not when the time comes. Too many people worrying about it in this life. If it turns out this is the only one we have, well.....shame to waste it wondering.

Faith; you've either got it or you havent.
I'm just a bit of an info junkie, I did spend alot of time looking into this stuff in the late 80s early 90s. It's sure a lot quicker in the days of Google ;) I spent years with my head in 'arcane' books whereas now its as simple as a meta search. Still I do love books...
 

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