Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by msr, Dec 30, 2005.
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I think he has got the government bang to rights here:
This was mentioned on the radio this afternoon...possibly a breach of OSA. However, I can't see Straw allowing Our Former Man in Tashkent his day in court. So any prosecution will not be in the "public interest" as I am sure Mr Murray will realise, hence the leak.
Another whinger. I had a very dear friend killed at King's Cross on 7/7. If evidence passed to us by the Uzbek govt would have helped prevent it, who would be complaining. If they torture people, that's their lookout....they're not applying to join the EU and we're not condoning it. But if it helps to stop (or better yet, find kill) these murderous Islamo-facist scum, who are we to refuse. Our duty is to protect our own.
This is a sad example of the kind of naive bedwetter that the FCO employs today, as a result of Bliar's Britain. I'd bet a month's salary the fcucker wears man-made shoes.
I doubt that torture would ever provide critical information, such as that which would stop a terrorist atrocity. Terrorist organisations tend to be run on a cell basis, or as a franchise operation such as Al Qaeda. Thus there is little chance of obtaining critical knowledge from an individual.
Furthermore, people will say all sorts of things under torture, and will concoct confessions, make up conspiracies or implicate acquaintances, particulaly if the individual's state of mind is altered. This leads to an inflated intelligence estimate of a conspiracy and demands for further powers, as well as further arrests and more torture.
The fact that a nation encourages torture will increase support for terrorist organisations, whether passive or active support. The use of methods seen by the majority as unacceptable also increases support for the use of similarly unacceptable methods such as suicide bombings and kidnappings.
So the support of torture in fact makes events like the July bombings more likely, whilst offering no intelligence benefits.
Misnomer to suggest torture not effective. This doesn't make it right, but it is effective. People will tell you what you want to hear..ie the truth...to make the pain go away. They won't begin making up detailed stories which don't stand up to cross referencing....because the pain comes back because they've been telling fibs.
People have been tortured to great effect for thousands of years. Again, I reiterate its completely wrong, immoral, and we shouldn't condone. But its PC rubbish to say it doesn't yield results...otherwise it woldn't have been used. My point is that if the UZBEKS or anyone else has valueable info, we shouldn't turn it down.
There is a difference between slapping someone around and boiling them alive - which is what happens in U-stan. There are limits on what is acceptable amongst allies - ethical foreign policy? my Arrse. How can 'we' bang on about being a force for good if we ally ourselves with a Stalinist regime that 'disappears' people and tortures them to death. Also, Craig Murray is a principled man who was subject to a (very New Labour) smear campaign to get him to shut up, so I personally wish him the best in his campaign. And no, I'm not a liberal bed-wetter - just someone who is pis sed off at being led into an unnecessary clash of civilisations at the behest of corrupt politicians and big industry.
I concur with all of that, and I'tm aware of what horrors the Uzbeks are, and indeed how our own stalinist dictatorship treats its people.
But by the same token, we are dealing with a deeply dangerous enemy who wanted our society and system destroyed and an islamic caliphate re-created well before Telic 1 began....my problems are with the competence and honesty (or rather, lack of) with which the govts os both US and UK have approached this problem. My point is we're overly precious about more and more things. Ethical foreign policy was a barking New Labour Robin Cookism, which fell apart as soon as it began. We should be as ethical as possible, and stand up for universal justice wherever possible...but is a country has something useful to offer us we shouldn't turn it down. We let Iran get away (literally) with murder, and they actively seek the Bomb! The world doesn't play by Queensberry rules, much as we wish it did, and should support efforts to improve international norms while playing very hard contact sports with the real baddies who threaten us. Moreover, I didn't join to be a global social worker...I joined to kill the enemies of the Queen. Kill - not try....which is why I'm a piss ed off infantryman wondering how to train my men to do their jobs efficiently without any of us ending up in the dock!
And I know you're not a bedwetting weiener! But this chap I believe is misfiring in his line of criticism.
Why even bother signing any anti-torture treaty then?
The government have been touting Saddam's history of repression, torture and execution as the reason it was necessary for us to invade Iraq (at least since their original reason was shown to be a lie); of course they want to cover up the fact that they have embraced an equally unsavoury character as an ally.
Perhaps the answer will be one of those special inquiries, in which the government appoint a judge who can be relied upon to arrive at the 'correct' conclusion. On second thoughts, why spend all the money? Stand by for AL1 to the Hutton Report - Delete: 'Kelly' and Insert: 'Murray'
Isn't the real issue that if you torture people, they will say whatever they believe their tortures want to hear?
We need to be setting the standards, not blindly following the lead of the US.
Its all academic. The iraqi court will be unable to make any of the prosecution claims stick against Saddam's super slick US former attorney general defence counsel. He'll get off and be elected as the parliamentary rep for the Sunni's. He'll then be re-elected as the nationalist candidate for the ejection of all western forces and the reunification of abyssinia on a peace and reunification ticket. Seizing the mood of the moment, he will record a song to celebrate peace and unity with Will Young, Elton John and Bono. The US and Britain, seeking to cut their losses will sue to provide external support in the form of intelligence and arms contracts to support Iraq against a resurgent Iran as it nears completion of a nuclear device. As a last ditch effort to prevent development of an Islamic bomb, Iraq will invade Iran in order to destroy key production facilities. After Eight years, both sides will reach stalemate and.......contd p 94.....
What odds will William Hill give me for that scenario G_B?
Damn short ones I'll warrant, though they may give me longer ones as you've included Will Young in that lineup.
But what has he wrote?
Separate names with a comma.