Crab wants end to navy jets

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by codbutt, Dec 7, 2008.

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  1. Only a crab would have the neck to say this. Obviously, those Sea Harriers putting lots of bombs on that runway in Port Stanley in 82 hasn't been forgotten and the RAF don't ever want it repeated. Obviously now that they are stuck with Typhoon (nothing to shoot down), won't get a strike replacement for Tornado (strike anyone?) and have neglected close air support since god knows when (quick! - scrap Jaguar! - scrap Harrier!) they are beginning to look a bit irrelevant. So - get rid of naval jets before anyone else gets in on the game. I'm surprised he isn't casting round for the army's Apaches and RN Sea Kings to go....

    Head of Royal Navy threatens resignation over push to scrap HarriersMichael Smith
    THE RAF is trying to use a major cash crisis within the Ministry of Defence to get rid of the Fleet Air Arm, defence sources said last week.

    Its campaign, which is being fought under the slogan “one nation, one air force”, has led to the head of the Royal Navy, First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Jonathon Band threatening to resign.

    Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, chief of air staff, is attempting to push through proposals to scrap the 75 Harrier jump jets currently shared between the navy and the air force.

    Torpy believes that the lack of a carrier-borne attack aircraft until the first of the new aircraft carriers comes into service, now 2015 at the earliest, will not be a problem.

    He argues that with the main focus of UK military operations for the next decade likely to be land-locked Afghanistan, there is no current need for carrier-borne aircraft.

    When the new carriers come into service the RAF can fly the Joint Strike Fighters that are currently due to fly off them.

    Scrapping the Harriers five years early in 2013 is seen as a relatively painless way of saving £1bn, the cost of keeping the aircraft flying.

    The £1bn is what the National Audit Office says will be the cost of two Harrier support contracts, one with BAE Systems and the other with engine supplier Rolls Royce.

    It is the only aircraft support contract that has yet to be signed so the MoD could decide not to go ahead with it without incurring penalty clauses.

    Getting rid of the Harriers will also lead to the closure of the Joint Harrier Force base at RAF Cottesmore in Rutland, adding to the cost savings.

    Torpy is thought to have the support of Air Marshal Jock Stirrup, the chief of defence staff, for the measure which is set to lead to a major clash between the RAF and the navy.

    But senior naval sources said last week that Band will resign if the RAF proposals are pushed through. "He's had enough," one said. "The navy has been cut and cut and cut again to get the carriers."

    The conflict comes amid what the sources said was the worst inter-service fighting since Labour’s notorious “east of Suez” defence cuts of the mid-1960s.

    Band is furious that the navy is taking the brunt of the cutbacks caused by a £2bn black hole in the defence budget, the sources said.

    John Hutton, defence secretary, will announce this week that the navy’s cherished two aircraft carriers will be delayed by up to two years.

    The navy agreed to a string of cuts to its ship numbers to keep the carriers and is now facing not only the loss of all its fixed-wing aircraft but also major cuts to its submarine force.

    One of a number of options designed to save money involves the accelerated retirement of the navy’s current Trafalgar-class attack submarines and delays to the Astute replacements.

    This would leave the navy with only four attack submarines for the five years between 2020 and 2025, compared to the current eight.

    It has also been told its new frigates, known as the future surface combatants, have been indefinitely postponed and plans to get rid of aging Type-22 frigates have been scrapped.

    Hutton has told the defence chiefs that they must come up with a final plan to save the £2bn shortfall by a meeting of the defence board on Friday December 19.

    The Ministry of Defence declined to comment on the issue ahead of Hutton’s anticipated announcement this week.
  2. Would you sell your last pair of trainers whilst running a marathon?

    Ofcourse you would. Those Ammo Boots will do just fine :Roll:
  3. He's just making a last-ditch effort as they enter the final decade. The most obvious choice would be to extend the AAC and the FAA. Just think of the savings to be made in uniform - on second thoughts, scrub that, they hardly ever wear it.

    Only problem is what to do with the RAF Regiment. They could be turned into infantry soldiers, but how long would that take? I suppose they could be subsumed into FPGRM, which would free up the multitude of matelots currently doing menial jobs there.
  4. Bugger off we trust the RNR more than the apes anyday :D

  5. LOL priceless :D
  6. Well the US Navy seems to be able to deploy carrier bourne aircraft over Afganistan? Appears to work for them.
  7. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    The whole probkem with the RAF, apart from their awful mess kit of course, is that the only reason that its different to BA is that it has Fighters to shoot down the enemy and bomb the enemy. With nobody having an airforce of any consequence left, 200 Eurofighters are an awful waste. We still need to bomb the enemy but those Eurofighters are an awful expensive airframe to do it with. I assume the RAF idea is that the sooner the Harriers are gone, the sooner there is no other option that to have Eurofighter. The longer that there is an alternative to Eurofighter, the longer there is a chance it will all get scrapped.

    RR and BAE should be told to **** off and their tender put up for RFP.
  8. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    Fantastic! RAF Officer negates requirement for longterm Int. RAF confirms no more wars apart from Afghanistan for next ten years.

    BAOR to close. Artic warfare instructors sacked. Jungle Warfare school closed. Falkland Islands garrison to be replaced by a bloke with a stick,
  9. But almost 2/3 of Joint Force Harrier are RAF already.

    I guess they're trying to make the case that the FAA fixed wing pilot cadre has gotten so small it would be cheaper to fold more of the training into Linton and Valley and assign Fishead fast jet types to RAF squadrons.

    Can't see any need to do the same with the Junglies though. 8O
  10. This has been 'played and played, time and time again'.

    There are however, factors that are always overlooked when considering the proposal.

    FACTOR 1: We live on an island. (Most politicians have no idea what an island is).

    FACTORS 2 to 14 (to start with): As there may be:
    too much sun;
    too much dust;
    not enough five star hotels;
    too much rain;
    too much wind;
    too much ice;
    too many snow flakes;
    too many 'sports' afternoons';
    too much damp;
    too many 'operations too far away';
    too many foreigners;
    too many requests for 'support' from the Army;
    not sufficient six star hotels;
    too many week-ends - (precluding flying of course)

    I worked for three years with the Royal Navy (HMSs Albion and Hermes), and three years with the Royal Air Force (Nos 18 and 7 Sqns). Six great years, but, when the chips are down..........................

    However, with the politically compliant Stirrup in charge, I'd guess it was a done deal. Remembering also that 'Mr.' West is a minister in the present government.
  11. meridian

    meridian LE Good Egg (charities)

    The one thing that should run through this is not ranting but some hard headed decision making based on likely probabilities. I say likely, not definite possibilities because that is the nature of capability decision making.

    No nation can afford to maintain forces for every eventuality, defence inflation and the ever increasing cost of kit sees to that so what you have to do is plan for one and hedge against another. Its this degree of hedging that is dictated by the horizon in front of you and your wallet.

    I don't think its a bad idea, scrapping the harriers, but if we can do without Harrier several years then by definition we can do without JCA as well, which incidentally I think we can.
  12. Head of RAF fights for his share of dwindling money. Navy fella not happy. What a shock. :roll:

    I don't see the problem with scrapping the harrier in the next couple of years - they've been flogged in afghan. So the crabs (continue) to provide the CAS in afghan and if the navy ever get their carriers, then the crabs fly the planes off them. As long as their are actually planes to be flown and drop bombs then job done!!!! its when we've no fast jets that we'll be in the brown stuff. The rest is just a big willy waving contest.
  13. Obviously no need for Tornado F3 or Typhoon F2, both fighter aircraft and the twerp Torpy can clearly see that terry Taliban is negative an airforce. Why Harrier? if he can still see us in Afghanistan in 10 years who is going relieve the Tornado GR4 in about 4 years for their harmony? Oh don't tell me............... that mongrel and as yet untested FGR4 that can allegedly now drop stuff where it aims it..... sometimes!

    The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy and in fighting rather than operational requirements and a need to support troops on the ground in the best way possible and with the best kit available.
  14. In fairness, as I understand it, they aren't "Navy Jets".

    JFH grew out of the paucity of GR7 pilots combined with the premature demise of the Sea Harrier. In a nutshell, when the RN folded their "zoomies", the RAF poached the pilots to man an already hurting fleet. What else were the zoomies going to do? FRADU? Heron Flt? 750 NAS??

    All JFH assets come under OPCOM HQ 1 Gp RAF; not belittling the efforts of those dark blue (25% I think) who fly/maintain/otherwise sp) these much-needed assets........
  15. we should also consider that we need to maintain the carrier operations, to ensure we have the skills to man the cvf when (if) we get them. no harriers, no fast jet carrier ops...