Cpls. Derek Wood and David Howes

Freedom of choice.

Ulstermen fought and died to give their countrymen the power of self determination.

If the democratic will of the people is to reunite Ireland, then so be it.

Let Dublin deal with any potential separatist movement.

I'm sure Dublin won't face the level of external interference/collusion experienced by Crown Forces.
i think we tried that with the Falklands just before the Argies rolled in.
 
Freedom of choice.

Ulstermen fought and died to give their countrymen the power of self determination.

If the democratic will of the people is to reunite Ireland, then so be it.

Let Dublin deal with any potential separatist movement.

I'm sure Dublin won't face the level of external interference/collusion experienced by Crown Forces.
I applaud the idea but Ulstermen may not have fought for democracy per se as Ulster had laws/customs which held Catholics in a reduced condition. Much as one dislikes OIRA, PIRA, etc the Civil Rights movement of the late 60s had a reasonable case to make, at least initially.
 
Last edited:
Not wanting to derail this thread as it deals with a serious subject, but can I briefly ask others an opinion on something.

Most days I listen to BBC Radio 5 so get to hear the near constant protestations from the Labour Party about nearly everything the tories do or plan to do.

One of the many things that stands out to me is that Labour/Corbyn often say that a fixed/staffed/patrolled border between NI and the south would mean a 'return' to the violence of the old days. I feel they say this as though things are still tense in NI but that the old baddies have all hung up their boots and that sectarian/criminal things stopped happening some time ago.

Do any of you feel that the old and (not bold) cowardly thugs just haven't gone away and some politicians are trying to simply dress NI up as a land of peace and harmony?
Any potential border controls are likely to be a pain in the arrse, I would cross the border at least once a month, and no-one wants them if there is a way to not have them.

There is still a terror threat from the DRs and it is highly likely that they will consider the people manning any kind of a checkpoint on our side of the border as a legitimate target and attack them.

But for 22 years now those DR groups have been attacking the Police, the Army (including the TA which is something PIRA didn't normally do), Government buildings and commercial targets. None of that has resulted in us going back to the pre 98 levels of violence so I really don't understand how attacks on border posts would do it. I have asked several people in the past who have stated that it would why they believed that. None of them could actually explain it.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
NI is an economic drain on the UK, a recent poll (according to independent radio news) stated that a majority of those who voted to leave the Eu when polled over the status of NI were in favour of making NI independent if it means a quicker and easier exit from the Eu.
I cant find the item at the moment, will look later, leaving for work shortly.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Why, please?
see below
It is part of the U.K. Has been since almost the time of the Norman Conquest.
They voted to remain, therefore should be allowed a full independence vote
Ulstermen have fought and died to remain British. We (our governments) have let down enough people who wished to retain links with us. It dishonours us (a minority view but an honest one).
Frankly despite the countryside and some of the people I wouldn't miss it, just because its been part of the UK since the acts of union doesn't mean they cant leave, India fought with us and left as did most of the commonwealth? Surely hanging on is imperialism?
We are not talking about Ulster as some sort of colonial possession. It is the U.K. And if the deaths in Ulster and on the mainland have been what William Golding, in another context, called a 'sad harvest', what does walking away achieve?
UK yes but not Great Britain, Ireland was part until the 1920's and frankly it is imperialism, they are mature enough to decide their own future but frankly they should be prepared to put up with strange Eu border arrangements or leave our union.
My answer in italics
Tell me honestly now if that in 1922 we had given up Ireland completely how much better off we would be now?
Tell me your views, just because you disagree doesn't make either of us right or wrong!
In fact it doesn't mean I believe what I am saying but there must always be a view that is different otherwise we do not have democracy.
Make them totally independent or a similar status to the Channel Islands. That would be another option!
 
My answer in italics
Tell me honestly now if that in 1922 we had given up Ireland completely how much better off we would be now?
Tell me your views, just because you disagree doesn't make either of us right or wrong!
In fact it doesn't mean I believe what I am saying but there must always be a view that is different otherwise we do not have democracy.
Make them totally independent or a similar status to the Channel Islands. That would be another option!
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Re. Brexit, it was a vote about leaving the EU, not about leaving the U.K.
Re. hanging on, it's not imperialism as Ireland and the Six Counties were not Imperial Possessions. The settlement of Ireland pre-dates the idea of Empire very considerably.
Re. the present status of N.I. within the E.U., a compromise will probably be arrived at which allows N.I. to have a working border with an E.U. member state. Something similar will apply to the border on either side of the Channel. Being honest, the N.I. border argument is being hyped for political reasons by pro-EU types. Just my opinion of course.

Leaving Ireland in 1922 equals an island-wide Civil War, arguably with a Northern Victory, possibly encompassing the North of Ireland from West Coast to East, and other loyal areas. Leaving would have created chaos and great loss of life.
Fair enough you might say; not our problem. It is a moral problem however (not that that bothered us elsewhere) and a source of instability very close to home.

I agree by the way about the importance of reasonable debate :)
 
Last edited:

ugly

LE
Moderator
True, in places. But so is Croydon, or Merthyr. Why single out N.I?!
Conveniently it's not part of the mainland. They could have a vote on it. After leaving the UK a few weeks later they can vote on joining the Republic. I would be interested to see if we were flooded with refugees
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Re. Brexit, it was a vote about leaving the EU, not about leaving the U.K.
Re. hanging on, it's not imperialism as Ireland and the Six Counties were not Imperial Possessions. The settlement of Ireland pre-dates the idea of Empire very considerably.
Re. the present status of N.I. within the E.U., a compromise will probably be arrived at which allows N.I. to have a working border with an E.U. member state. Something similar will apply to the border on either side of the Channel. Being honest, the N.I. border argument is being hyped for political reasons by pro-EU types. Just my opinion of course.

Leaving Ireland in 1922 equals an island-wide Civil War, arguably with a Northern Victory, possibly encompassing the North of Ireland from West Coast to East, and other loyal areas. Leaving would have created chaos and great loss of life.
Fair enough you might say; not our problem. It is a moral problem however (not that that bothered us elsewhere) and a source of instability very close to home.

I agree by the way about the importance of reasonable debate :)
It's all hypothetical unless?
 
My tuppence, we're losing reason and manners, partly through anonymity and partly through ideology and learned behaviour. And because of politicos. Whatever passes for debate is increasingly split between entrenched deaf and shouty factions with little or no interest in the middle ground. Forget reason. The two poor bloody JNCOs in the title weren't afforded much reason.

I am of course guilty of the above at times, and one of those dinosaurs close to extinction ;-P . I doubt universities even teach listening and reasoning any more, and if they condone active listening, who listens? The middle ground is a lonely place but where would referees like the Dimblebys be, without it.

And I agree, NI could have a vote on independence or republican unity, or adopt the status of the Channel Islands and IOM with ceremonial governors.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Right I'll start a thread in current affairs as this has derailed perhaps Piper 89 can explain why he disagrees with me there?
 
My tuppence, we're losing reason and manners, partly through anonymity and partly through ideology and learned behaviour. And because of politicos. Whatever passes for debate is increasingly split between entrenched deaf and shouty factions with little or no interest in the middle ground. Forget reason. The two poor bloody JNCOs in the title weren't afforded much reason.

I am of course guilty of the above at times, and one of those dinosaurs close to extinction ;-P . I doubt universities even teach listening and reasoning any more, and if they condone active listening, who listens? The middle ground is a lonely place but where would referees like the Dimblebys be, without it.

And I agree, NI could have a vote on independence or republican unity, or adopt the status of the Channel Islands and IOM with ceremonial governors.
An active listening course run by my then firm 20 years ago was one of the most valuable pieces of training I have had
 
Still a shithole that I’d be happy to never see again.
What a pity you never got to Lough Erne, or the Mournes and Sperrins, or the Glens of Antrim and the Coast Road, or the Ards Peninsula, or Islandmagee, or the Portstewart/Portrush beaches, or Castlewellan or Gosforth forest parks, or the likes of Hillsborough or Cushendun or The Moy or.........are you sure you were there?
 
Last edited:
I am saying what I witnessed at the time.
There were Soldiers who had been issued weapons without a healthy respect for the reasons why.
There were Soldiers who were issued weapons that were so full of themselves that this needed to be broadcasted to everybody by wearing shoulder holsters.
The standard of weapon handling on some of the ranges was atrocious. As was the standard of handling weapons in barracks.
The practice of driving around with weapons "made ready" outside of sop's was appalling.
The lack of intel passed to non sneak need to know units was seriously lacking.
The training programme to Soldiers given the responsibility of driving around a province of extremely observant people was non existent in reality.
I could go on forever with my disdain and contempt of the systems in place by support arms of the day. the reality was that 2 very vulnerable untrained NCOs drove unwittingly into an area (due to failures in the system), got boxed in , one pulled a gun but had no idea how to use it with effect or even mechanically as his magazine fell off. The outcome was that they were both murdered by evil people hundreds of whom were present at that Funeral. The Priest got his name in the media for gratuiously administering the last rights. The CO of the unit praised his men for "acting with restraint", probably got an OBE.
I can only say what I witnessed at the time.
"Get up or I'll ******* well shoot you as well".
Yes Titus, I guess he did it to get his name in the media.

Father Alec Reid - Obituary

BTW, I do hope that gunman has since died an agonising and lonely death
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top