Covid Passports - Yay or ney?

Should we have have Covid passports?


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ugly

LE
Moderator
Had anyone asked the important question yet?





what colour is the cover?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
One has to balance the the consequences out. Do you shut schools down and impact the lives of kids for years on end in a state where 700 people out of a population of 579,000 snuffed it? Do you depress the economy for decades in an effort to save everybody? Or do you look at the results and realize that not even one percent of the population has passed due to this wonder bug and start to ask hard questions? Is it worth it to protect Ethel at the expense of my children's future? Do the older generations have a right to sacrifice the well being of those who have more than a few years left to live, to protect themselves? Life is not fair, and it can be downright cruel. But if you told me that my kids can't go to school in person for a few years because it would endanger your grandmother who is 97, I would get you a shovel. My old man would do the honorable thing and float himself down the river and save people from having to make that choice.
The majority of people who've had Covid haven't died from it. Co-morbidity is a big feature of this pandemic.

On some levels, I agree that there needs to be a level of self-determination. There was a former Lord Chief Justice interviewed on TV last year who, unsurprisingly, was/is of fairly advanced age. He made a fair point: that given his age, he may well only have a couple of years of life left anyway; that being the case, he doesn't want pubs and restaurants shut and was prepared to run the risk of catching Covid even if that meant dying as it is/was a quality of life issue.

I get his logic, and empathise. However, There is also the real issue of overwhelming medical facilities.
 
The majority of people who've had Covid haven't died from it. Co-morbidity is a big feature of this pandemic.

On some levels, I agree that there needs to be a level of self-determination. There was a former Lord Chief Justice interviewed on TV last year who, unsurprisingly, was/is of fairly advanced age. He made a fair point: that given his age, he may well only have a couple of years of life left anyway; that being the case, he doesn't want pubs and restaurants shut and was prepared to run the risk of catching Covid even if that meant dying as it is/was a quality of life issue.

I get his logic, and empathise. However, There is also the real issue of overwhelming medical facilities.
That is always a possibility but all it takes out here is a 90 car pile up on I-80 to achieve the same result. Doesn't mean we shut the highways down because people die on them.

My wifes grandmother is in a home, and for a year she was not allowed to see any of her family members. The woman wanted to flat out fecking die, she didn't view life as worth living being isolated to protect her. You take away the only thing gives people the will to live and think that is a success because you keep the body alive?
 
That is always a possibility but all it takes out here is a 90 car pile up on I-80 to achieve the same result. Doesn't mean we shut the highways down because people die on them.
Surely you mean a mustang stampede, or a war-party leaving the reservation?
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
One has to balance the the consequences out. Do you shut schools down and impact the lives of kids for years on end in a state where 700 people out of a population of 579,000 snuffed it? Do you depress the economy for decades in an effort to save everybody? Or do you look at the results and realize that not even one percent of the population has passed due to this wonder bug and start to ask hard questions? Is it worth it to protect Ethel at the expense of my children's future? Do the older generations have a right to sacrifice the well being of those who have more than a few years left to live, to protect themselves? Life is not fair, and it can be downright cruel. But if you told me that my kids can't go to school in person for a few years because it would endanger your grandmother who is 97, I would get you a shovel. My old man would do the honorable thing and float himself down the river and save people from having to make that choice.
Think of it in battlefield terms, the dead need few assets, the injured tie up 3 - 6 other persons per casualty, not all Covid casualties are old, infirm or previously medically compromised.
Where would you draw the line? 70? 60? 55? - or would there be some kind of means testing?

Often, large scale events cause a shift in normality, earthquakes divert rivers, roads and close off previously inhabited areas. Pandemics can do the same, there's no reason that education for example shouldn't change to a remote model - it works in sparsely populated areas such as Australia, I believe that small groups come together for online classes, I think it used to be done by TV or radio (two-way?)
America, for somewhere so 'young' in settlers terms, with all its tumultuous history does seem very change averse.

You need more firerwater frontier spirit ;)
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Surely you mean a mustang stampede, or a war-party leaving the reservation?
Good luck with trying to get the 5.2 litre ones to stampede! you'll be lucky if more than 50% will start...
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
That is always a possibility but all it takes out here is a 90 car pile up on I-80 to achieve the same result. Doesn't mean we shut the highways down because people die on them.

My wifes grandmother is in a home, and for a year she was not allowed to see any of her family members. The woman wanted to flat out fecking die, she didn't view life as worth living being isolated to protect her. You take away the only thing gives people the will to live and think that is a success because you keep the body alive?
As I say, I can empathise to a degree with a right to self-determination. @re-stilly and I have talked about this offline several times over the last year.

At the same time, there should not be a reckless or wilful disregard of the safety and choices of others.
 
I've got a passport
I've got a driving licence
I've got a bus pass
I've got numerous bank cards and credit cards
I've got membership cards in abundance
I've got store cards

A covid 'passport' ain't gonna make me any more visible than those.
 
Think of it in battlefield terms, the dead need few assets, the injured tie up 3 - 6 other persons per casualty, not all Covid casualties are old, infirm or previously medically compromised.
Where would you draw the line? 70? 60? 55? - or would there be some kind of means testing?

Often, large scale events cause a shift in normality, earthquakes divert rivers, roads and close off previously inhabited areas. Pandemics can do the same, there's no reason that education for example shouldn't change to a remote model - it works in sparsely populated areas such as Australia, I believe that small groups come together for online classes, I think it used to be done by TV or radio (two-way?)
America, for somewhere so 'young' in settlers terms, with all its tumultuous history does seem very change averse.

You need more firerwater frontier spirit ;)
In this case I would say the over 80 population.
But the vast majority were elderly, which is a fact. No different then any other disease that strikes an other animal population.

Remote learning sucked, and it doesn't help kids or parents out. Trying to teach my daughter maths the way her teachers do is totally different then the way I learned. Being the constant source of entertainment whilst trying to work a full day while they only had 2 hours of work was a non starter. Kids need be socialized which is one of the important elements of school, and teachers didn't want to be made redundant. So last September we opened up to in person learning.
 
I think people have gotten a bit to used to the concept that we are not really mortal, and expect to live forever regardless of life choices. Do we try to protect the infirm and elderly? Yes, but we can't stop the grim reaper from doing his thing. How much time do you think a 95 year old is going to have left? Does the guy that ate McDonalds two meals a day and smokes two packs have more priority in life then the rest of us who didn't? Do you kill the economy to protect the few or keep it open to benefit the vast majority?
You do both. You protect the economist and protect the population.

the primary aim of this and any government is to protect its people . Not protect the economy at all costs.

Sadly, most people see things through a binary lense. It’s one thing or another. Governments don’t get that luxury. It’s multiple factors at play.

This will give you some brief idea of the complexities of decision making processes for any large organisation.


Any useful government will of course realise that that protecting its population can’t be done without protecting the economy, which I think we’ve done.

I know a few people who have lost their jobs. They all worked for companies that were struggling. All have found alternative employment. Everybody I know, other than those few people have lost their jobs have continued to work. I

My company, as have many have actually expanded during lockdown. Not actually because of the pandemic, but because of natural growth. There’s numerous cases where expansion plans have been put on hold because of brexit. Not because of brexit you understand? But because of the uncertainty of not knowing what was happening.

I do not know one person who has been furloughed. That may be because I don’t know anybody who is a barman, waitress or shop assistant.

we do know however that there’s been £180 billion banked by the public during this pandemic, with all savers itching to spend it once the lockdown restrictions are lifted. Even with my wife’s best efforts at buying anything and everything available for the house during lockdown, although we haven’t saved much, we’ve massively paid down debt in order to allow us to bring forward those big ticket items she’s planning on saving.

But you’re right that the economy is important. I don’t know however how much a hit the economy would’ve taken with the class action suits that would have followed had we not locked down.

I still don’t know how the economy would’ve faired from the political backlash that would’ve allowed somebody who makes Corbyn look like a rogue investment banker had got into power off the back of The political fallout of doing nothing.

I don’t know how the economy would’ve gone had outside investors looked at the U.K. and thought ‘f*ck me, they can’t even look after their own people. What do you think they’ll do with our investment?’ Because as we all know, the most richest, productive and desirable countries for investment are the ones everybody puts their money into. Yet we have a no queue of people looking to invest in The countries who have pretended the virus doesn’t exist.
 
I've got a passport
I've got a driving licence
I've got a bus pass
I've got numerous bank cards and credit cards
I've got membership cards in abundance
I've got store cards

A covid 'passport' ain't gonna make me any more visible than those.
Do you feel that any of those discriminate against you? For example, do you feel discriminated against that you have to have a driving licence to drive a car? (Incidentally, chances are you had to pay for that privilege. Nobody is asking you to pay to have a vaccine.)
 
Do you feel that any of those discriminate against you? For example, do you feel discriminated against that you have to have a driving licence to drive a car? (Incidentally, chances are you had to pay for that privilege. Nobody is asking you to pay to have a vaccine.)
Not one bit.
 

NSP

LE
Don't see the problem. If you want to go to certain countries they require you to show that you have certain vaccinations before they let you in. You do this by showing an official certificate from the administering clinician. I had to prove I'd had a Yellow Fever jab before they'd let me into African s**tholes, various. No big deal.

Same deal with COVID - if you want to travel abroad/go to Glasto'/go down the pub, get hammered and slobber and snort over everyone else then get the bloody jabs. It's not discriminatory; the needle's available to anyone that wants it.

If you don't want the vaccine then you are both a selfish idiot and you'll just have to suck up not being able to go to the pub - whatever gender, race or religion you are.
 
You do both. You protect the economist and protect the population.

the primary aim of this and any government is to protect its people . Not protect the economy at all costs.

Sadly, most people see things through a binary lense. It’s one thing or another. Governments don’t get that luxury. It’s multiple factors at play.

This will give you some brief idea of the complexities of decision making processes for any large organisation.


Any useful government will of course realise that that protecting its population can’t be done without protecting the economy, which I think we’ve done.

I know a few people who have lost their jobs. They all worked for companies that were struggling. All have found alternative employment. Everybody I know, other than those few people have lost their jobs have continued to work. I

My company, as have many have actually expanded during lockdown. Not actually because of the pandemic, but because of natural growth. There’s numerous cases where expansion plans have been put on hold because of brexit. Not because of brexit you understand? But because of the uncertainty of not knowing what was happening.

I do not know one person who has been furloughed. That may be because I don’t know anybody who is a barman, waitress or shop assistant.

we do know however that there’s been £180 billion banked by the public during this pandemic, with all savers itching to spend it once the lockdown restrictions are lifted. Even with my wife’s best efforts at buying anything and everything available for the house during lockdown, although we haven’t saved much, we’ve massively paid down debt in order to allow us to bring forward those big ticket items she’s planning on saving.

But you’re right that the economy is important. I don’t know however how much a hit the economy would’ve taken with the class action suits that would have followed had we not locked down.

I still don’t know how the economy would’ve faired from the political backlash that would’ve allowed somebody who makes Corbyn look like a rogue investment banker had got into power off the back of The political fallout of doing nothing.

I don’t know how the economy would’ve gone had outside investors looked at the U.K. and thought ‘f*ck me, they can’t even look after their own people. What do you think they’ll do with our investment?’ Because as we all know, the most richest, productive and desirable countries for investment are the ones everybody puts their money into. Yet we have a no queue of people looking to invest in The countries who have pretended the virus doesn’t exist.
I understand your points, but will your government be able to keep the furlough scheme in place indefinitely? At what point do you decide that the risk of COVID is in fact not worth the actual harm it inflicts? Would you shut down a country when the odds of surviving this bug are in fact greater than 97 percent? At what point do you decide to make the tough choices or keep on punting and hoping the damage is not permanent?


One could also say the costs of COVID are going to to hurt your country badly, when it comes to things like defence spending.
 
Here in north wales the covid situation is being very well handled as the number of vaccinated people increase at an impressive pace just 2 weeks ago the number of new cases in several areas was in the hundreds we are going to get swamped again as restrictions are eased (it happened in the autumn and caused a 2 week firebreak lockdown) vaccine passports should be shown at the english border just for our own protection

todays figures:
 

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Here in north wales the covid situation is being very well handled as the number of vaccinated people increase at an impressive pace just 2 weeks ago the number of new cases in several areas was in the hundreds we are going to get swamped again as restrictions are eased (it happened in the autumn and caused a 2 week firebreak lockdown) vaccine passports should be shown at the english border just for our own protection

todays figures:
So do we use the Klingon Dictionary to translate by chance?
 
Here in north wales the covid situation is being very well handled as the number of vaccinated people increase at an impressive pace just 2 weeks ago the number of new cases in several areas was in the hundreds we are going to get swamped again as restrictions are eased (it happened in the autumn and caused a 2 week firebreak lockdown) vaccine passports should be shown at the english border just for our own protection

todays figures:
So do we use the Klingon Dictionary to translate by chance?
 

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